Why am I the only one who minds this?

DrMom

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 1:56 am

behappy2 wrote:

Does it also bother you that only kohanim say Birchas Kohanim and get the first aliya etc..Does it bother you that small children under 13 can't be motzei anyone, be counted with a minyan and more..Does it bother you that women light the Shabbos candles and not men. I'm wondering is it a justice issue or do you want to be equal or better at all times, in every situation?

I want to add that your situation is unusual with you usually making kiddish for everyone, so it could be you feel hurt. That's an emotional thing and nothing to do with feminism or genders.

Not really a fair analogy.

OP can make kiddush and motzei an be yotzei for others, and she has been doing his for years. Now DS is 13 and he is taking over without asking, even though both people can perform these duties.

salt

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 2:16 am

Is a man chayav kiddush mideorayta and a woman miderabanan? Is that the case here? I'm not expert enough in halacha.
If that is the case here, then a 13 yr old boy can be 'motzi' a woman, but a woman cannot be 'motzi' a man.
That's just halacha.
As a previous poster said, you could say kiddush first for yourself and the other kids, and then he could say for himself.
And you can say hamotzi on the challa for everyone.

DrMom

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 2:22 am

salt wrote:

I was taught that men and women were equally obligated in kiddush and that therefore a woman can be motzei for a man.

salt

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 5:24 am

DrMom wrote:

I was taught that men and women were equally obligated in kiddush and that therefore a woman can be motzei for a man.

Yeh you're right according to Yeshiva.org
https://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/31705 (Hebrew sorry for English readers only).

Women and men have same obligation.

So why don't you make a deal with your son - you like making kiddush for the family when your DH is not around, but he probably likes it and feels big too.
So that's why there are 2 seudot Smile

Arrange with him that you'll do one time each.

amother

Denim

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 8:15 am

Do it yourself. "It's better to have a male do it" doesn't mean "It's forbidden for a female." Who decided it's better? Males, for the glory of malekind. Because in an era when many males had limited education and females mostly had no education at all, to have a female take an active leadership role in a religious ceremony would imply that all the males were so ignorant that they had no choice but to rely on a female. That's what "kvod hatzibbur" means.

In an age when most females have at least twelve years of formal jewish education and many have more than that, a female in a leadership role does not imply that the males are ignorant. Aderabba, it implies that here is a society so advanced that ordinary women are learned. Furthermore, by having a kid--at 13 he is still a kid even if he is halachickly an adult--make kiddush, motzi etc. the implication is that his mother is too ignorant to do so. And I agree with the pp who said we don't need any more reasons for a kid to think he's superior to his mother.

amother

Blonde

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 8:29 am

My husband works at least one weekend a month. He's a doctor. He's been taking call since two days after our wedding, 20 years ago.

I make kiddush and hamotzi for our family when he is gone, even though we have teenage boys. My sons never care to make a second one for themselves so they don't.

As long as what I'm doing isn't assur (I've been told it's not), then I shall continue. If anything, I'm happy my boys feel it's odd to suddenly begin to make kiddush for their mother. Especially after I had been doing it for well over a decade.

watergirl

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 8:30 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

Your feeling is very strange, I was absolutely proud every time my ds had occasion to do any of those for me. What is it that bothers you exactly?

A feeling is a feeling. It is not strange. You do not feel this way and you can not relate, but please do not invalidate her for feeling this way. There have been many good responses in this thread, read through the whole thread and you will understand OP better.

amother

Cerulean

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 9:02 am

OP maybe ask a Rav his opinion. I hear your resentment although I don't share it, but I'm not in your situation.

Any of my bar mitzva boys makes havdalah for us every motzai shabbos with my husband present.
Kiddush is different though. For me it's nachas to hear my boys say the holy words of kiddush in their beautiful sweet voices, but if you don't feel that way, why not ask a Rav for perspective and see what he says.

amother

Sapphire

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 10:00 am

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

Also, remember that a 13 year old boy often looks like a little kid. Maybe it’s less odd when they’re bigger than me but still

My 14 year old has a mans voice and is taller than I am. Regardless of the fact that he has made kiddush and havdallah a few times (very few but it’s happened), I still ‘wear the pants ‘ and there’s no question who the mother is and who the child is. I’m proud of the young man he’s turning out to be and we are happy to follow Halacha/minhagim as best as we are able.
Actually havdallah is the only time you really need a man- which the Torah considers a male 13 years and older. Kiddush is okay for a woman on her own but you do whatever feels right for you.

amother

Jade

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 3:31 pm

I have a cousin whose husband was niftar r"l very young, she had a son who was 11 and another who was 6 at the time. She spent every Shabbat after that with her parents so her father made kiddush and then once her boys became Bar Mitzvah they took over. She never made kiddush after her husband was niftar all the years until her boys were out of the house and married and her father passed it was like 30/40 years.

So the first time she made kiddish for herself she was in her 60's. Her husband was niftar she was 37 and she did not know how to make kiddish.

amother

Lime

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 5:32 pm

watergirl wrote:

I,disagree and I think something deeper is going on when a mother doesn’t “far’gin״ her child this.

amother

Natural

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 5:37 pm

salt wrote:

If anything, the problem with a just turned bar mitzva boy making kiddush Friday night is that he is only mechuyav drabbanan and his mother is mechuyav doraisa. From bar mitzva until physical maturity is still a drabbanan status and there are those who would not allow a 13 year old to be motzi older people in mitzvos doraisa (Shabbos day kiddush is drabbanan)
as always ask your own LOR should it be applicable.

Rappel

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 5:39 pm

salt wrote:

Both are chayav.

The person who is the biggest talmid chacham present should do the kiddush.

It's specifically mentioned that if a woman knows more Torah than a man, then it's a shame on the man.

But the solution, IMHO, is for the man to learn more Torah, not for the woman to bow out on the honour of the Torah.

Ema of 5

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 5:42 pm

amother [ Bronze ] wrote:

DH is away on business over shabbos fairly often? That's unusual & I wouldn't handle this. A father belongs home on shabbos. Is it possible for DH to change his schedule so he can be home for shabbos? Is he a doctor that's on call often over shabbos?
I don't see what's there to be bothered by your son making kiddush and havdala, I'd be so proud, he reached a milestone.

This was not her question, and she didn’t ask for your opinion about it. This is the setup they have, and either it works or they are making the best of it.

pause

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 5:55 pm

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

Also, remember that a 13 year old boy often looks like a little kid. Maybe it’s less odd when they’re bigger than me but still

AFAIK that's a halachic problem for him to be you motzi. He needs to be gadol physically too.