What do non singers do during zemiros

amother

Sat, Dec 05 2020, 11:47 pm

DH would like there to be absolute silence during singing (or singing with him obviously). There are several members of my family (generally the younger ones or females who can’t sing in front of guests) who will have side conversations during zemiros (not super loud but DH says it’s distracting nonetheless). He insists on no singing, DD says it’s unfair to make her sit there bored for so long (when she can’t join in on the singing and also can’t whisper something to anyone at the table)...

How does everyone else deal with this?

(Please respond assuming our solution will NOT be to force anyone to sing. The question is what to do with the people who can’t or won’t sing for whatever reason).

amother

Pumpkin

Sat, Dec 05 2020, 11:52 pm

It's unfair to sing and expect the girls to shut up and listen. This isn't a table of men only. Families have a dynamic of their own.

It's rude to talk loudly or carry on a multiparty conversation while someone is singing zemiros, but soft whispering, or even excusing yourself to the kitchen is ok in my book. Going to sit in the living room is not.

trixx

Sat, Dec 05 2020, 11:56 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

If he insists on this then she has to be allowed to leave the table. Yes, even to the living room to read a book.
If he wants her there, then he has to give leeway. If the goal is a shared family experience, then make it enjoyable for everyone. If it's to show off his voice, sorry but no one has to be forced to sit and listen.

nchr

Sat, Dec 05 2020, 11:57 pm

I can't believe this is an actual question. Obviously you need to be quiet when people are singing zemiros. It's very rude to talk or leave the table. Your daughter can be taught appropriate times to talk. Presumably she knows to be quiet during class or shul why is this different and a parent no less.

ExtraCredit

Sun, Dec 06 2020, 12:05 am

We allow the non singers to converse but obviously not too loudly. The zemiros needs to overpower. The men sing long songs and for most of the meal. It’s unfair and unrealistic to have the young kids be silent this long. By Dvar Torah which is usually quicker we ask all of them to be completely quiet.

Last edited by ExtraCredit on Sun, Dec 06 2020, 12:41 am; edited 2 times in total

amother

Mistyrose

Sun, Dec 06 2020, 12:12 am

In our family, women sing in an undertone, while men are singing. I would consider it rude to have a side conversation instead of participating. If she is not allowed to sing (not that she chooses not to) than, assuming it is more than one or 2 Zemers, she should be allowed to leave the table or whisper to the person next to her (not across the table) if she chooses.

In regard to the person who compared it to Shul, Ummm, at Shul I davening, I don't just sit there passively while the men davening, even if I am not audible over the mechitza.

trixx

Sun, Dec 06 2020, 12:51 am

nchr wrote:

If it's one quick song, sure. If it's 5+ minutes of singing, no, and again, what's the objective of all the zemiros anyways?

Blessing1

Sun, Dec 06 2020, 12:56 am

trixx wrote:

If it's one quick song, sure. If it's 5+ minutes of singing, no, and again, what's the objective of all the zemiros anyways?

Older kids and adults should be able to sit quietly for 5 minutes. It is disrespectful to talk while the father/husband is singing zemiros. We allow our kids to leave the table but it's basic respect to be quiet when dad/DH is singing zemiros. Same goes at my parents & in laws.

Last edited by Blessing1 on Sun, Dec 06 2020, 12:57 am; edited 1 time in total

ExtraCredit

Sun, Dec 06 2020, 12:59 am

amother [ Black ] wrote:

One song per meal, all should try to be quiet.
Once the singing gets to more than that then it's just too boring for the girls.

I never heard of limiting the amount of songs. DH sings everything in the zemiros. Not listening

Frumme

Sun, Dec 06 2020, 1:10 am

Somehow you have to bring a compromise between DH and DD. If DD is forced to sit quietly and just listen while singing goes on and on and she isn't allowed to even hum along, she's right-- it is unfair to her and will develop into resentment. She won't have a love and appreciation for zemiros if the current situation goes on. As an adult, she will probably not have fond memories of the shabbos table. It's our job to instill in our children a love and appreciation of yiddishkeit; ignoring their feelings and being unreasonable will probably cause the opposite.

Maybe she only has to sit through 1 or 2 songs quietly and then can go read a book on the couch, or can have a very quiet conversation with someone sitting next to her. Or if it's not too distracting for DH (edit for amother Beige: and DD is happy to do it of her own accord), perhaps zemiros singing can coincide with table clean up between courses etc so DD has something to do while the men are singing.

Whatever you decide, please don't push her feelings aside. Make sure to validate her.

Last edited by Frumme on Sun, Dec 06 2020, 1:30 am; edited 1 time in total

DrMom

Sun, Dec 06 2020, 1:11 am

Insisting on *absolute silence* seems unnecessarily controlling.

But to expect that non-singers not have loud, distracting conversations at the table during the time set aside for singing zmirot is very reasonable.

(That being said, we all sing zmirot at our table.)

silverlining3

Sun, Dec 06 2020, 1:17 am

I can understand not tolerating loud conversation and laughter, but quiet talk? Hmmm, it's tough.
Best thing would be, you and your husband come up with some sort of compromise.

Good luck

amother

Beige

Sun, Dec 06 2020, 1:19 am

DrMom wrote:

I agree with this.
I don't agree the singing should be done btwn courses while cleaning up is happening and she be expected to clear while the boys sit and sing, it sends a message that girls' participation at the Shabbos meal is mostly about cleaning rather than the spiritual aspect, unlike boys. That will cause resentment, for sure. It sure won't get her to enjoy shabbos meals.

amother

Slategray

Sun, Dec 06 2020, 1:47 am

I thought from the title that the question was " what do people who can't carry a tune do during zmirot?" And as a perowho can't carry a tune, my answer is "sing very quietly". I still get to join in on the activity, but my lack of talent won't be publicised and wont be bothersome to others.

amother

Green

Sun, Dec 06 2020, 2:02 am

Some people don't like or enjoy singing full stop.
If you allow a controlling atmosphere during family time don't be surprised when family time is missing family members.
To go on singing when people by the table do not want to or cannot participate is plain rude.
DH and two boys sing a few short songs. Two boys and the girls talk, laugh, and live.
Chas veshalom for the shabbos table to be unwelcoming or unpleasant to our own children. Where else would you rather they be?

Lady A

Sun, Dec 06 2020, 2:10 am

We aren’t having guests yet but we allow everyone to sing at the table.

However, in your case, dh needs to put himself in your dd’s shoes. How would he react to being forced to sit at the table for minutes on end doing nothing.

If he keeps insisting on this policy, serve dessert to dd and other females first. Punch

crust

Sun, Dec 06 2020, 2:25 am

How long is the singing?

My father used to sing 3 or 4 select zmiros and we were either quiet, we hummed along or we went into the kitchen.

My husband sings the entire zmiros. It is pretty long and he does not expect everyone to sit there quietly or sing along the entire time.

Our Shabbos Sueda is not a control party. Its a Shabbosdige Sueda.

You can always read a book on the coach or get up and do something outside but having a conversation in the room is disrespectful imo.