Home

Ladies name child simcha invitation
Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next  Last >>
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Hobbies, Crafts, and Collections


View latest: 24h 48h 72h


amother




Linen
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 10:20 am
amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:
Just by the way, some of us haredi people consider ourselves the upper echelons of society too.

What an offensive post.


What? How about some reading comprehension.
A previous poster said that not only do haredim write invites this way, but very formal, proper non-Jews do too.
So I said that I have only received such invites from the former group, not from the latter. Nobody hinted that haredim do not belong to the upper echelons of society; it was not mentioned here because that's not the reason they write invites that way.

And I am far from the upper echelons of society myself.
Back to top

Ilana Tamar




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 10:20 am
I've always felt strongly about including my own name on the wedding invite. Without it, I have no identity. Just someone's wife or daughter. Not an individual.
Like a previous poster pointed out, we work much harder and invest more in this child than anyone else did. Our names belong there.
Putting my parents' names isn't enough, since I am not their only daughter.
Back to top

Fox




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 10:20 am
I think it's one part cultural sensitivity and two parts traditional etiquette. The tznius element is there, but there's a lot of variation among different communities that are otherwise similar in terms of hashkafa.

My only complaint is the construction "Mrs. Chana Fox." Traditionally, that was the formal address for a divorcee, which is one of the reasons "Ms." caught on. People now use "Mrs. Chana Fox" to weasel out of using Ms. while still keeping the woman's first name to prove to everyone she exists or whatever.

Just have the courage of your convictions. Or issue more informal invitations and leave off titles entirely.
Back to top

amother




Linen
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 10:26 am
Fox wrote:
I think it's one part cultural sensitivity and two parts traditional etiquette. The tznius element is there, but there's a lot of variation among different communities that are otherwise similar in terms of hashkafa.

My only complaint is the construction "Mrs. Chana Fox." Traditionally, that was the formal address for a divorcee, which is one of the reasons "Ms." caught on. People now use "Mrs. Chana Fox" to weasel out of using Ms. while still keeping the woman's first name to prove to everyone she exists or whatever.

Just have the courage of your convictions. Or issue more informal invitations and leave off titles entirely.


Most women I know use Ms. these days, or use nothing at all (in Israel), which solves a lot of problems. I am fifty now, and I don't see any of my dds' friends who are getting married excited to become a Mrs. It sounds so matronly. Most are sticking to the Ms.

But of those who do use Mrs, etiquette changes over time, and once most of society is doing something, that becomes engrained into a new etiquette. So even if once Mrs. Chana Fox was unacceptable for a married woman, today it is fine.
Back to top

amother




Linen
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 10:27 am
Fox wrote:
Or issue more informal invitations and leave off titles entirely.


This also extremely common in my circles. A lot more common to leave off the Mr and Mrs/Ms than include.
Back to top

Crookshanks




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 10:28 am
Fox wrote:
I think it's one part cultural sensitivity and two parts traditional etiquette. The tznius element is there, but there's a lot of variation among different communities that are otherwise similar in terms of hashkafa.

My only complaint is the construction "Mrs. Chana Fox." Traditionally, that was the formal address for a divorcee, which is one of the reasons "Ms." caught on. People now use "Mrs. Chana Fox" to weasel out of using Ms. while still keeping the woman's first name to prove to everyone she exists or whatever.

Just have the courage of your convictions. Or issue more informal invitations and leave off titles entirely.

I'm confused? What's wrong with Mrs. Chana Fox?
Back to top

Fox




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 12:17 pm
Crookshanks wrote:
I'm confused? What's wrong with Mrs. Chana Fox?

It just seems sloppy and slovenly.

"Mrs. John Smith" originally meant "mistress of [the house of] John Smith." If someone styled herself "Mrs. Jane Smith," it meant that she was either divorced or a woman of advanced years and standing to warrant a courtesy title.

More recently, "Mrs." was used to distinguish a woman's social life from her professional life. If you look back at old magazines, you'll see that female performers were always referred to as "Miss." If you invited Miss Elizabeth Taylor to an event, you were inviting her in a professional capacity. If you invited Mr. and Mrs. Husband #7 to an event, it was for the pleasure of their company as a social unit.

In fact, my college has always followed this format. When I was a student, there were plaques everywhere noting that Mr. and Mrs. Roger Smith had donated this or that. Now there are similar plaques lauding the generosity of Mr. and Mrs. Brad Hall. The unspoken message is that it's not your business that Mrs. Smith earned the money for the wing by singing and dancing under the name Ann-Margaret, nor is it any of your business that Mrs. Hall inherited a great deal of money and also made plenty of her own appearing in sitcoms under the name Julia Louis-Dreyfuss.

Even for those of us who are not public figures or performers, names and address are a way of separating our public and private personas. Ms. Chana Fox will tell you why it's important to reindex your database regularly or will write the content for your fundraising campaign. Mrs. Chaim Fox will attend your simcha.
Back to top

Crookshanks




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 12:24 pm
I still don't understand...what is sloppy? Why is it bad to write Mrs. Chana and not Ms. Chana?
Back to top

amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 12:30 pm
Crookshanks wrote:
I still don't understand...what is sloppy? Why is it bad to write Mrs. Chana and not Ms. Chana?


Mrs. Chana implies that the addressee was married but is not any longer, because if she were married, she'd be called Mrs. Shmuel Fox.

Ms. Chana does not deal with her marital status at all.

This is really only a concern for people who have a very old edition of Emily Post at home.
Back to top

Fox




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 12:33 pm
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
Mrs. Chana implies that the addressee was married but is not any longer, because if she were married, she'd be called Mrs. Shmuel Fox.

Ms. Chana does not deal with her marital status at all.

Exactly. So why make up some weird new combination? Just use "Ms." if you want to use a woman's first name.
Back to top

Crookshanks




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 12:36 pm
Ohhhh. Now I understand. Basically Mrs. Shmuel means she is married, and Mrs. Chana is a weird amalgation of married/divorced/something else, but Ms. Chana doesn't have any of that connotation. Is that right?
Back to top

grace413




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 12:48 pm
Back in olden times when I was a child women were always referred to as Mrs. John Smith.

I remember a shul publication which featured pictures of women (horrors!) and the caption was: Mesdames Shmuel Schwarts, Moshe Cohen etc. Despite the pictures I felt the womens' identities were erased.

My mother who is far from a flaming feminist used to sign her name as:
(Mrs. Yaakov) Sara Rabinowitz. (Not real names obviously) This made a big impression on me which is why I remember it.

In Israel Mr. or Mrs. or Ms are not used on invitations. So it's either Shprintza and Yoel Kaplan or Yoel Kaplan V'Rayaso. The latter is indeed the equivalent of Mr. and Mrs. John Smith.

My Charedi relatives do not have the mother's name on the wedding invitation but frequently have "L'beit Adler" the mothers maiden name. I have certainly never seen an invitation without the name of the Kallah.

Times change. None of these things are Torah M'Sinai and people should be allowed to choose how they prefer to be named.
Back to top

amother




Babypink
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 3:30 pm
amother [ Bronze ] wrote:
Can someone explain what type of guy reads a female name like Chani and goes off to masterb@te to that?

Do your children's daughters never mention the names of their friends? Do they call their friends Mr. X's daughter age y?

Lol lol lol
It has nothing to do with that.
It has to do with the fact (I think, at least that’s how I understand it) that the couple becomes one once they’re married.
Mr. And Mrs. Avrohom Rosenberg
One unit.

When a couple is divorced, for example, the woman is never omitted (at least I’ve never ever seen her omitted) because then she’s a separate entity.
Also if the mother died Gd forbid, it’s a separate type of existence and then she’s written out separately even if he did not get remarried.
But a married couple is written as one in those circles with dh’s last name, even if they have big Shalom bayis issues lol

Kind of like a Company Name, there’s usually one name even if there’s a President and a CEO etc
Back to top

amother




Linen
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 3:38 pm
amother [ Babypink ] wrote:
Lol lol lol
It has nothing to do with that.
It has to do with the fact (I think, at least that’s how I understand it) that the couple becomes one once they’re married.
Mr. And Mrs. Avrohom Rosenberg
One unit.

When a couple is divorced, for example, the woman is never omitted (at least I’ve never ever seen her omitted) because then she’s a separate entity.
Also if the mother died Gd forbid, it’s a separate type of existence and then she’s written out separately even if he did not get remarried.
But a married couple is written as one... with dh’s last name, even if they have big Shalom bayis issues lol


The couple doesn't become one, the wife is subsumed under her husband's identity.

Becoming one means that their identity is merged, and that isn't happening here. You have no idea of anything to do with the woman when she is called Mrs. Avrhohom Rosenberg, except that she is married to Mr. Avrohom Rosenberg. Whereas you know exactly who the man is, his religion (Jewish), his eida (likely Ashkenazi), his background (probably frum and perhaps Yiddish speaking).

The woman could be a Chinese buddhist or a mizrachi Israeli or an anglo-Saxon convert for all we know. She's erased.
Back to top

amother




Linen
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 3:42 pm
amother [ Babypink ] wrote:


Kind of like a Company Name, there’s usually one name even if there’s a President and a CEO etc


A company name often has nothing to do with the President's name or the CEO's name (say, Coca Cola or Pepsi).

If it is based on a name, it's based on the founder (say, Levi's or Ralph Lauren) - in cases where there is one main founder.

A family has TWO founders. Like Ben & Jerry's.
Back to top

amother




Babypink
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 3:46 pm
grace413 wrote:
I have certainly never seen an invitation without the name of the Kallah.

.

I also didn’t. They’re not one unit because they’re not married yet, they’re standing completely separately until they’re married.

You’ll also never see Mr & Mrs Avrohom Rosenberg until they’re married. Or even Mr and Miss Avrohom Rosenberg. Haha No way
Back to top

amother




Babypink
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 3:50 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
The couple doesn't become one, the wife is subsumed under her husband's identity.

Becoming one means that their identity is merged, and that isn't happening here. You have no idea of anything to do with the woman when she is called Mrs. Avrhohom Rosenberg, except that she is married to Mr. Avrohom Rosenberg. Whereas you know exactly who the man is, his religion (Jewish), his eida (likely Ashkenazi), his background (probably frum and perhaps Yiddish speaking).

The woman could be a Chinese buddhist or a mizrachi Israeli or an anglo-Saxon convert for all we know. She's erased.

Maybe her past seems hidden but that becomes her new identity, that is who she is now. She’s Mrs Avrohom Rosenberg.
What does that mean? Whatever she made out of that name because of the influence and power she has in this Company.
I’m not for or against ladies, I’m just thinking out loud, please don’t attack me lol
I promise it wasn’t my idea.
Back to top

amother




Linen
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 3:56 pm
amother [ Babypink ] wrote:
Maybe her past seems erased but that becomes her new identity, that is who she is now. She’s Mrs Avrohom Rosenberg.
What does that mean? Whatever she made out of that name because of her influence on her husband.
I’m not for or against ladies, I’m just thinking out loud, please don’t attack me lol
I promise it wasn’t my idea.


If that's what she wants to be, great for her.

In today's world I would be very wary of addressing someone like that. Most women in my circles don't want to be solely defined by the influence they have on their husbands.
Back to top

zaq




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 4:09 pm
Crookshanks wrote:
Ohhhh. Now I understand. Basically Mrs. Shmuel means she is married, and Mrs. Chana is a weird amalgation of married/divorced/something else, but Ms. Chana doesn't have any of that connotation. Is that right?


Mrs. Shmuel can also be a widow.

If you look at old correspondence or publications of women's organizations, their letterheads look like this:

New York Hebraic Society for the Support of the Downtrodden Poor

Mrs. Charles Himmelfarb, President
Mrs. Joshua Eisen, Vice President
Mrs. Asher Levy, Treasurer
Mrs. Albert Cardozo, Recording Secretary
Miss Emma Lazarus, Secretary Without Portfolio

As far as society-at-large is concerned, only Miss Lazarus has her own identity. The other women are merely appendages to their spouses. Doubtless, if you know the other ladies you know that Mrs. Himmelfarb is the former Jeanette Goldman and Mrs. Eisen the former Fanny Sachs, but only if you know them.
Back to top

amother




Babypink
 

Post  Wed, Jan 13 2021, 4:14 pm
zaq wrote:
Mrs. Shmuel can also be a widow.

If you look at old correspondence or publications of women's organizations, their letterheads look like this:

New York Hebraic Society for the Support of the Downtrodden Poor

Mrs. Charles Himmelfarb, President
Mrs. Joshua Eisen, Vice President
Mrs. Asher Levy, Treasurer
Mrs. Albert Cardozo, Recording Secretary
Miss Emma Lazarus, Secretary Without Portfolio

As far as society-at-large is concerned, only Miss Lazarus has her own identity. The other women are merely appendages to their spouses. Doubtless, if you know the other ladies you know that Mrs. Himmelfarb is the former Jeanette Goldman and Mrs. Eisen the former Fanny Sachs, but only if you know them.

Yeah the companies are all the husbands names.
She can decide which company she wants to join... where she wants to become the CEO.
And he gets to decide who he chooses as his CEO, it can be someone who will make him millions or rip him to shreds so it’s a big decision for both of them.
Once she’s CEO the company is hers too even though the name isn’t, infact even the name becomes hers too, and yeah her past is hidden but it’s most definitely there. Just like the roots of a tree. And she’s a full owner, I mean part owner but with major power and influence.

(I mean the kids are only Jewish because of her, that’s the root, but the branches, the shevet and minhagim is his).

I think that’s the idea.
Back to top
Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next  Last >> Recent Topics

Page 3 of 4 View latest: 24h 48h 72h


Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Hobbies, Crafts, and Collections

Related Topics Replies Last Post
S/O Last Letter First Name 750 Today at 8:16 pm View last post
S/O Last letter, name a mood swing or feeling
by simcha4
309 Today at 7:03 pm View last post
Flma / disability/ emergency child care during covid
by amother
9 Thu, Jan 21 2021, 8:06 pm View last post
Last Letter Name a Place 1055 Thu, Jan 21 2021, 4:06 am View last post
Name of herb that can help with taste back?
by amother
2 Sun, Jan 17 2021, 5:56 pm View last post