Please, please do your due research

keym

Sun, Jan 24 2021, 10:29 pm

Amarante wrote:

Israel isn't different. This is what I read about in terms of the US which is why the advice is to keep all precautions until two weeks after receiving the second dose and even that maintaining precautions.

I didn't mean to make it exclusive to Israel. Israel is somewhat unique since they seem to have managed to have a higher percentage of people vaccinated than many other countries.

I know the UK is going with a single dose for more as a strategy but from what I have read that is not considered to be scientifically sound.

Israel is considering (or already decided) to close Ben Gurion to ALL incoming flights, in part to prevent mutations from coming and mutating more.

eschaya

Sun, Jan 24 2021, 11:07 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I can only imagine how difficult your job must be.

Treatments must be given immediately with covid, long before the patient needs ICU care, in order to have the most impact (and the same is probably true of most diseases).

You are absolutely right. All of the abovementioned treatments are started as soon as someone is sick enough to require oxygen, or if their oxygen needs rapidly escalate. It is rare that we admit covid patients directly from the ED to the ICU; they typically first go to the floor, then escalate to the intermediate care unit, and then to the ICU should their trajectory continue to deteriorate.

SixOfWands

Sun, Jan 24 2021, 11:25 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

No, that's the wrong question. Its not the public's job to prove the vaccine is Not safe.

But you're the one claiming that it is possible to get covid from the vaccine. Surely you can explain the scientific process by which that could occur. Given that its an mRNA vaccine, I certainly don't understand how it could be possible. I'd be interested to hear.

amother

Seashell

Sun, Jan 24 2021, 11:39 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

No one said the vaccine gives you covid. That's misconstruing what was said.

It's been noted that many people seem to be getting sick with covid shortly after getting the vaccine. There is legitimate concern that the vaccine makes one more susceptible to covid. This possibility has not been ruled out.

There is also concern, as with all mRNA vaccines, of the risk of ADE. ADE has not been ruled out as a possible outcome of the covid vaccine.

amother

Gray

Sun, Jan 24 2021, 11:39 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

Obviously. That was my point, I was responding to someone who said she did fine with the vaccine. I did fine with the virus. Neither of our personal experiences are particularly relevant to the statistics as a whole.

Covid is dangerous with no treatment. So is strep, and many other illnesses.

But this is no longer March 2020. I'm well aware of how horrific covid is without treatment. But we are nearly a year in and there is some understanding of how the disease progresses and what can be done to prevent bad outcomes.

Furthermore, covid carries very low risk for people in different age groups without comorbidities. While there are individual cases of people who r"l had bad outcomes, when looking at the statistics as a whole, and make sure to include people who had covid but with barely any symptoms or asymptomatics in your total, there is extremely low risk for people in certain categories.

You can't compare that to the risk of the vaccine as that is still not fully known or understood, it is still being studied. I honestly don't understand the confidence with which anyone can peg the vaccine with a specific statistical value of safety.

Covid isn't dangerous only because of deaths, but also because of long haulers, many of whom suffer considerably, and survivors who have various serious health issues as a result. THAT includes young people without comorbidities.

SixOfWands

Sun, Jan 24 2021, 11:39 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

The US reached 100,000 covid deaths in late May. 200,000 on September 22, so not quite 4 months later. 300,000 on December 14, so not quite 3 months. 400,000 on January 19. Just a month.

So the deaths rate is accelerating. Doesn't sound like we know how to avoid bad outcomes to me.

amother

Seashell

Sun, Jan 24 2021, 11:44 pm

eschaya wrote:

Question is to what extent does early at home treatment prevent one's situation from progressing to the point of needing to go to the ED in the first place. In March, there were no recommendations at all, just stay home until you can't breathe, then call hatzolah.

SixOfWands

Sun, Jan 24 2021, 11:45 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

There's no evidence of it, of course. I mean, someone also claimed the vaccine would make us all gay (https://www.israelhayom.com/2021/01/11/popular-rabbi-warns-followers-covid-vaccine-could-make-you-gay/), but there's no evidence of that, either.

amother

Seashell

Sun, Jan 24 2021, 11:49 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

That's silly. The evidence is being gathered in real time. This is an observation made by many health care practitioners who have been instructed to monitor patients and report anything unusual.

There is absolutely evidence of ADE as a side effect of mRNA vaccines.

SixOfWands

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 12:01 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

Citations?

I see a lot of weekend warrior conspiracy theorists with Google Doctorates, who never heard of ADE until recently, spouting this. But no serious evidence.

Disclaimer -- I have to rely on experts because I'm no scientist. But I prefer to rely on genuine experts, not Dr. Google.

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 12:15 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

It's been noted that many people seem to be getting sick with Covid. On what basis do you say there's legitimate concern that the vaccine makes one more susceptible to covid?

ADE did not occur in the clinical trials.

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 12:24 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

It was unusual, to say the least, for the AMA to direct doctors not to prescribe a longstanding drug off label.

I personally have no direct experience with hcq, other than that my mother's primary care doctor, (who is not Dr. Zelenko fwiw), told her that he prescribed it for his nursing home patients, including people in their 90's, and he did not lose a single patient to covid. But as our imamother statisticians would remind us, that doesn't mean hcq is effective. It does seem to raise questions, though, about whether our scientific advisory bodies have something of a political agenda. Afaik, neither the initial advisory nor its retraction was based on new evidence or newly published studies.

The retraction was based on detailed analysis of the patients who received hcq under the EUA. They performed a large, randomized clinical trial that includes far more patients than your mother's primary care physician had access to. You don't seem to be following the FDA updates but you're certainly making assumptions about the evidence.

Can you explain what the political agenda is?

LovesHashem

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 4:05 am

SixOfWands wrote:

That's seriously concerning. Wow....another two weeks there may be another 100,000 deaths.

PinkFridge

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 7:16 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

There was a lot they didn't know, and hospitals were overwhelmed.