Please, please do your due research

amother

Taupe

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 9:56 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

It's a publicly searchable database run by the cdc
https://wonder.cdc.gov/vaers.html

Not to quibble, but your source actually lists 112 deaths, not 148. Out of over 11 million people in the US who received the vaccine, that's about .001% (.0013% for 148).

More importantly, most of these deaths appear to be incidental to the vaccine and are only reported because, as a new vaccine, EVERYTHING is reported. While this is appropriate as part of data gathering, it's ingenuous to imply that the vaccine has LED to these deaths. It seems that you either do not understand the data or are misleading deliberately.

NO medication is completely safe, and I agree that people should do their due diligence in making their healthcare decisions. And, like other posters above, I question what due diligence is for many.

I have an advanced degree in laboratory science and am able to read and understand most (not ALL) research reports but I still defer to the experts. I discuss my healthcare choices with physicians who have earned my trust. Also, I am fortunate to have professional relationships with respected infectious disease doctors and, believe it or not, my internist and ob are stating the same things that they do!

I'd post under my screen name but, since I know very few frum women with my educational background, I would likely be identified, at least by members of my community.

amother

Seashell

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 12:10 pm

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

The retraction was based on detailed analysis of the patients who received hcq under the EUA. They performed a large, randomized clinical trial that includes far more patients than your mother's primary care physician had access to. You don't seem to be following the FDA updates but you're certainly making assumptions about the evidence.

Can you explain what the political agenda is?

This makes no sense. A large randomized trial confirmed what was the established scientific view for 40 years, or 65 years as SB said, which is that hcq is safe? Then why issue the warning in the first place? A severe warning that doctors cannot even prescribe the drug off label is, as noted, extremely unusual to put it mildly.

There was no large randomized controlled study that found hcq to be particularly *dangerous* when used to treat covid.

Amarante

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 12:16 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

As I recall there was some kind of finding based on its usage in VA hospitals. It determined that outcome was no better than those who didn't receive it.

The reason why it is problematic is that the drug has potential severe side effects. The cost benefit analysis is that the benefits outweigh the risks when it is used to treat a condition which it actually works on. When it is has no benefit to treat as in COVID it should not be prescribed since the risks outweigh the non-existent benefit.

Since it has been found to be of no value in many different countries there is no hidden agenda except the neutral agenda of scientists and medical personnel who are looking out for the best interests of patients.

amother

Seashell

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 12:18 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Citations?

I see a lot of weekend warrior conspiracy theorists with Google Doctorates, who never heard of ADE until recently, spouting this. But no serious evidence.

Disclaimer -- I have to rely on experts because I'm no scientist. But I prefer to rely on genuine experts, not Dr. Google.

Thanks. As I mentioned above, I discussed this with professionals. Fact is, we do not know with certainty that ADE is not a risk. Anyone who wants to take the vaccine should be aware. People have died of the vaccine.

Amarante

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 12:20 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

And that is exactly why early, at home treatment is vital.

No that is not what is indicated since even people who are relatively asymptomatic and exhibit no or mild symptoms have been shown to have severe lung damage in x-rays.

The best thing to do is get the vaccine as soon as possible and until then (and even after) mask with GOOD masks and social distance.

Recent studies have shown that the quality of a mask makes a big difference in protecting the wearer. N95 are the gold standard although KN95 are also pretty good. The big difference is that N95 have a tighter fit but my KN95 masks fit fairly tightly. When I am in an especially high risk situation I will also put on a face shield.

They now have KN95 masks which tie rather than have ear loops and these are supposed to provide a better fit. I have fat cheeks so my KN 95 fits pretty well LOL

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 12:28 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

No, the trial determined that hcq is not effective in treating covid, and in fact there were many serious side effects to the drug in patients in the trial. So yes, it poses unnecessary danger.

amother

Seashell

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 1:48 pm

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

No one knows anything for certainty, except that millions have people have taken the vaccine and ADE has not occurred.

Again this is unknown. Israel's rates are going up, hospitals are overflowing despite what is it now, a third of the population? getting the vaccine. Many people report getting very sick with covid after taking the vaccine. The possibility that the vaccine is playing a role in this has not been ruled out.

amother

Seashell

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 1:50 pm

Amarante wrote:

This has always been a matter left to the individual doctor's judgment. Has there been any other drug that doctors were specifically prohibited from using off label?

amother

Seashell

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 1:52 pm

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

No, the trial determined that hcq is not effective in treating covid, and in fact there were many serious side effects to the drug in patients in the trial. So yes, it poses unnecessary danger.

I would venture to say no such study exists because I've been following hcq pretty closely. There was the major fiasco where the NYJM published a study based on fabricated data that they were forced to retract. But instead I'll ask you to please share the study.

amother

Cyan

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 2:00 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

This is a stupid statement.

Israel's rates are going up and between 40-70% of the new cases are the British mutation, which spreads much faster and also seems to affect children more.

Hospitals are overflowing - it takes 4-6 weeks before cases make it to the hospital. So anyone admitted this week contracted covid around the beginning of December. For reference, Netanyahu received his first dose of the vaccine (he was the first Israeli to receive it) on December 19. So the people crowding hospitals now contracted covid before the vaccine rollout.

What is it now, a third of the population? getting the vaccine - not even close. Israel has a population of 9 million and about 2.6 million have received the vaccine, of those just 1 million have received both doses. In other words, approximately one-ninth of Israel's population is fully vaccinated.

Many people report getting very sick with covid after taking the vaccine - because the moment they have an appointment for the vaccine they stop precautions since soon enough they'll be protected, so they don't need the precautions anymore, right? So if they made an appointment for Thursday and it's now Monday, then on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday they are already not social distancing anymore. Is it any wonder that within a few days of the first dose they are positive for coronavirus?
The smarter ones wait until just before their second dose to start relaxing precautions, but that still carries a risk.

amother

Seashell

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 2:11 pm

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

Great, so we'll never be able to say the vaccine did or didn't work because if it doesn't seem to work, we'll find other factors to blame it on. For instance, we don't know if the vaccine makes one more susceptible to contracting covid. The fact that it's the British or other mutation doesn't change that.

Cases in Israel have not peaked, despite *nearly* a third of the population receiving at least one dose. Does one dose have zero expected efficacy?

We still don't know if receiving a single dose, as opposed to receiving 2 doses, makes people more susceptible to covid.

Last point is also pure speculation and does not change the fact that, the possibility the vaccine makes one more susceptible to getting sick with covid, has not been ruled out.

SixOfWands

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 2:23 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

Clearly you haven't been following it "closely" if you've missed the many studies indicating that its ineffective.

https://www.nih.gov/news-event.....id-19

https://www.pennmedicine.org/n.....vid19

https://www.jwatch.org/na52078.....id-19

https://www.nature.com/article.....907-w

https://www.drugs.com/medical-.....6024/

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/931061

Among many others.

amother

Seashell

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 2:24 pm

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

No, I said *reported*, and that is correct. The covid vaccine deaths as reported to the CDC exceed the *reported* flu vaccine deaths by 120 times.

It's disingenuous to imply that those reported deaths been established to have no causal connection to the vaccine. I'm assuming you either do not understand the data collection process or are misleading deliberately.

No, I'm actually not assuming that. I don't know you so I couldn't possibly make any realistic assumptions as to your internal motivations. But I find it interesting how some here are resorting to personal attacks as well as attempting to trot out superior degrees or intelligence, in response to legitimate concerns raised.

amother

Seashell

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 2:27 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Her claim was that a study found it to be dangerous. Dangerous enough for the AMA to take the (I think?) unprecedented step of directing doctors not to even prescribe it off label. Whether or not hcq is effective is a different question that has already been debated on this site endlessly.

I asked for the study demonstrating that hcq is specifically dangerous for people with covid.

SixOfWands

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 2:30 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

Of course we will know. When enough of the population has receieved 2 doses and waited the requisite time for the vaccine to take effect.

Or if the numbers fall among the vaccinated at that point.

There was no evidence in the clinical trials indicating that the vaccine makes you more vulnerable to covid. No evidence since then, either.

I mean, I could suggest that covid was developed and released by the Plutonians as payback for declaring that Pluto is not a planet. But there's no proof of that either.

SixOfWands

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 2:33 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

So no citation.

A person who violates group rules by posting anonymously without revealing personal information is asking people to ignore published medical experts because she spoke with "experts" whom she doesn't identify who say that maybe there is some risk. But can't explain why.