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How to Respond to Disrespect in Young Children
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behappy2




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 10:18 am
#BestBubby wrote:
If the kinder gentler way works, great!

But if it doesn't?


I have 2 very different children. One I used to use Dina Friedman's approach. Discipline with love. It backfired. His behavior got worse and worse. Today I use attachment, empathy, boundaries, respect. My other child begs for discipline (not literaly) but she does very well on discipline, both positive and negative even though she will kick and scream.
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amother




OP
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 10:36 am
I do a combination of things you all have mentioned like natural consequences, collaborative problem solving, listening & empathizing, rephrasing respectfully, etc.
I do feel that for this particular child I do need to toughen up & have stronger boundaries. I also need teach him how to have self control. Any ideas?? Methods to follow??
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amother




Pewter
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 10:43 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I do a combination of things you all have mentioned like natural consequences, collaborative problem solving, listening & empathizing, rephrasing respectfully, etc.
I do feel that for this particular child I do need to toughen up & have stronger boundaries. I also need teach him how to have self control. Any ideas?? Methods to follow??


I want to support you in that we used to use many of the gentle parenting techniques with my very mild ASD son. His behaviors became worse with time. We called in the help of a behavioral therapist who convinced us to stop using methods like collaborative problem solving, which were translating to him as a way to manipulate and barter whenever he didn't get what he wanted. We learned to tell him "No arguing back," and "we are so sorry x didn't work out the way you wanted it to, you are allowed to be angry, but we don't owe you a compensation.". He still tantrums, but learned to walk to another room to let out his anger privately. We no longer feel like slaves to his demands, WE are in charge. The gentle parenting, tons of empathy, collaborative problem solving work with my daughters, but NOT with my son. He needed to learn that his parents are in charge and life doesn't owe him complete gentleness at all times. I wish you hatzlacha finding the parenting method that works for this child!
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luckymom1




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 10:54 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I do a combination of things you all have mentioned like natural consequences, collaborative problem solving, listening & empathizing, rephrasing respectfully, etc.
I do feel that for this particular child I do need to toughen up & have stronger boundaries. I also need teach him how to have self control. Any ideas?? Methods to follow??


There is a great book called "How to take the tumbles" by Eileen Beltzner. It is written in story format. I read it alone first and then I read it along with my children. It was very helpful in understanding big feelings and how to your body feels before it gets to "blowout".

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1771.....T9CB7
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behappy2




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 11:17 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I do a combination of things you all have mentioned like natural consequences, collaborative problem solving, listening & empathizing, rephrasing respectfully, etc.
I do feel that for this particular child I do need to toughen up & have stronger boundaries. I also need teach him how to have self control. Any ideas?? Methods to follow??


Have you ever used a behavioral approach? Dina Friedman's course is great for that. Clear and structured.
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amother




Yellow
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 11:21 am
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
Natural consequences works best in our house. Moishy, please go sit at the dinner table and eat. No I’m busy. Ok now is the time to eat. I am not warming up the food later. He comes late, he eats the food cold.
Moishy, time to do your homework. No I’m not doing it. Now’s the time I’m free to help you , later on I won’t be available. Does homework later, doesn’t get help. Doesn’t do homework, then faces whatever consequences from the teacher/school.

Say it once or twice and then let them face the consequence.


I wanted to add this to my post but I couldn’t think of any good examples, so thank you for writing this. My son’s therapist highly recommended this and it worked really well.
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amother




Yellow
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 11:23 am
luckymom1 wrote:
There is a great book called "How to take the tumbles" by Eileen Beltzner. It is written in story format. I read it alone first and then I read it along with my children. It was very helpful in understanding big feelings and how to your body feels before it gets to "blowout".

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1771.....T9CB7


Thanks for the recommendation I’ll check it out. I’d also recommend soda pophead
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amother




Olive
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 11:36 am
This thread has raised so many thoughts and feelings in me because we value derech eretz.

We say דרך ארץ הייב זיך אן ערלי יוגענט which means before birth.
I talk to my babies about derech eretz.
If I ask my 3 yr old what he wants to be when he is older he says hachnuahdig.
My child who has a hard time in this has a teacher who says she is the most respectful child in the class keh.

I freeeeaaakkkk out inside when I see children acting rude, saying no to parents, not listening right away and more.

But there is another side to this coin.
Instead of having a narrow definition of chutzpah and being so harsh over things that most people don't define as chutzpah, teaching a child to rephrase what they said or to talk to themselves in the mirror the way they spoke to you is probably way more educational.

I hate chutzpah. It's the opposite of everything I am. It makes me feel sick. I also get these urges to punish a child who says something that even grenitzes itself with chutzpah BUT I think being hachnuahdig comes from an inner desire to want to be that way. So yes, children need to learn to say yes and not no to parents, but there must be some way to teach it that talks to their inside more than fear and since I don't know what that is yet, I can't really comment on it.

Also there is no chutzpah in my mother's home or my home but my siblings and I are very meek and not assertive. I wish we would have learned it's OK to say no. I wish I knew how to teach this to my children.

Whatever. It's a Grey area.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 11:47 am
amother [ Black ] wrote:
In the past few pages of this thread, Ive asked what the positive benefit of punishment is for the child - how it helps the child learn skills for self control.
No one answered the question.
Does anyone want to?

Research shows there is no positive effect of punishment, and that even if there is something we can “accomplish” by punishing, there are definitely better ways to do it. So why do we hold so strongly to the idea that punishing is necessary for discipline? I’d like to suggest a concept.

Punishment does not have any positive effect for our child. However it does have a good short term effect for us mothers. Sometimes we mothers get so overwhelmed by our child’s behavior and we just need it to stop. Sometimes punishment is the only way we can see it stopping quickly.

However in this case, the punishment is not a discipline tactic. It’s simply a way for us mothers to calm down an overwhelming situation.

But we mothers are loathe to admit that we are doing this for ourselves. It’s for the child!!! The child has to learn!!! If we admit to ourselves that punishments don’t teach, can only harm, and that there are other better ways to teach, then we may have to use parenting methods that won’t get us those seemingly quick results that punishing does, or risk feeling selfish.

Of course sometimes it seems like

But why is the goal to calm him down quicker? The goal is to teach the child how to calm himself down. Getting him to ‘calm down quicker’ is good for the parent. Not good for teaching the child.

As parents sometimes we will make decisions in our own better interests against the best interest of our child, and that’s okay! But don’t call it discipline, or teaching your child anything....


1. If Punishment does not work, why does HASHEM PUNISH? And WARN us of Punishment?

Do you say "Ani Ma'amin" where if one does not believe that Hashem Rewards and PUNISHES
s/he is an Apikorus?

2. You admit that punishment works to STOP the behavior. That is the goal of punishment.

Yes, we want children to Understand WHY the behavior is wrong. But sometimes a child is too
immature to understand.

We demand that children not run into the street, play with matches even
before they are mature enough to understand.
We ALSO EXPLAIN why this is dangerous so children will follow these rules from their own will.

But children have to Obey even before they understand. We don't understand all the Mitzvos
of the Torah. Some Mitzvos are CHUKIM. We have to follow them anyway.

3. Learning Self Control IS FOR THE CHILD'S SAKE (as well as parents, siblings and others).
A child without self-control is doomed to being unemployable and unmarriageable!

4. Don't make Research your Avodah Zorah. There is a lot of fraud in research, to ensure
that the CONCLUSION is what the researcher wants - to be PC and fit into government agenda.

Fraudulent Research Example 1:

A study that "proves" spanking kids is harmful. The study lumped parents who gave ONE smack
together with parents who beat their children to a pulp. Then the study "concluded" that spanking
is HARMFUL!

No, the study proved that CHILD ABUSE is harmful. The Study did not DIFFERENTIATE
between child abuse and a single smack. This is Fraud to convince parents that "science"
shows giving a smack is harmful.

Fraudulent Research Example 2:

At start of Pandemic, Dr. Zelenko publicized a protocol that prevented nearly 100% deaths and hospitalization - a combination of Hydroxycloroquine (HCQ), Zinc and Antibiotic. This protocol had to be given at the earliest signs of symptoms because not effective once patient is hospitalized.

But some in government did not want a cure because they needed panic to destroy economy and get rid of Trump. So they made a FRAUDULENT STUDY to "prove" that HCQ is dangerous and ineffective.

In the study doctors gave HCQ to Critically ill patients in Hospitals. The doctors gave a MASSIVE OVERDOSE of HCQ. This KILLED the Covid patients. Then the study claimed to "prove" that HCQ
is DANGEROUS and INEFFECTIVE.

No! the Study proved that scientists and researchers can be CROOKS! They did not follow Zelenko's
protocol of giving HCQ at earliest sign BEFORE PATIENT IS HOSPITALIZED! They gave a MASSIVE OVERDOSE which KILLS. A Massive Overdose of ASPIRIN will also kill you -that doesn't prove that
aspirin is dangerous.

So don't blindly believe all "science" and all "research". TRUST THE TORAH more than "science"


Last edited by #BestBubby on Tue, Mar 16 2021, 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother




OP
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 12:06 pm
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
I want to support you in that we used to use many of the gentle parenting techniques with my very mild ASD son. His behaviors became worse with time. We called in the help of a behavioral therapist who convinced us to stop using methods like collaborative problem solving, which were translating to him as a way to manipulate and barter whenever he didn't get what he wanted. We learned to tell him "No arguing back," and "we are so sorry x didn't work out the way you wanted it to, you are allowed to be angry, but we don't owe you a compensation.". He still tantrums, but learned to walk to another room to let out his anger privately. We no longer feel like slaves to his demands, WE are in charge. The gentle parenting, tons of empathy, collaborative problem solving work with my daughters, but NOT with my son. He needed to learn that his parents are in charge and life doesn't owe him complete gentleness at all times. I wish you hatzlacha finding the parenting method that works for this child!

Amen! Thanks for this perspective. I can relate to it very much. Where do I find a behavioral therapist?
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amother




OP
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 12:07 pm
behappy2 wrote:
Have you ever used a behavioral approach? Dina Friedman's course is great for that. Clear and structured.

I never took Dina Friedman’s course but have done other parenting courses. Can you please provide more examples of different behavioral approaches? Thanks.
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amother




OP
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 12:08 pm
luckymom1 wrote:
There is a great book called "How to take the tumbles" by Eileen Beltzner. It is written in story format. I read it alone first and then I read it along with my children. It was very helpful in understanding big feelings and how to your body feels before it gets to "blowout".

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1771.....T9CB7

Thanks!
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amother




Seashell
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 9:47 pm
Are you yeshivish or jpf? If so, can we just acknowledge there’s a lot of chutzpah the kids see modeled at school at this age. It’s a widespread problem. Sarah Chana Radcliffe mentioned the chutzpah problem in her Mishpacha article this Shabbos. She explicitly said that many parents are afraid to be too firm with their kids out of fear it’ll turn them off of yiddishkeit (and I believe the same is true with rabbeim, moros, teachers at least in my experience). The kids get away with a lot at school and it makes our job at home harder.

My kids are teens and young adults now. Two have adhd and one has odd. Parenting them has been a lot of work. But we’re BH seeing beautiful peiros. Please, op, do yourself and your son a favor and set firm boundaries about how you allow your children to speak to you. Sarah Chana Radcliffe has good books and classes that work well for our community.
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mra01385




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 12:39 am
I agree that everyone should read Sara Chana Radcliff’s book “Raise your kids without raising your voice” Her book gives the torah hashkapha on parenting and chinuch. She compares a child’s consequence to an adult getting a parking ticket. She also has the 80/20 rule. Where most interactions should be positive like compliments, praise, encouragement etc. 20 percent is teaching, gently criticizing, giving directions. For listening she has the 2x rule. If don’t listen after the 2nd time get a consequence. The consequence can be something small like one less cookie, or getting served last, or 2 minutes less of story time etc. Her discipline methods can be checked out in aish.com or on her website

http://sarahchanaradcliffe.com/

Another amazing book with lots of torah hashkapha is called “Planting and Building in Education by Rav Wolbe. It is very short and concise. He explains that today’s generation is much weaker and less resilient than previous generations. This is why kids today need gentle discipline with no potches.

Another fantastic book is “How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk by Adele Faber. All these books mention gentle discipline with much empathy but with firm limits and boundaries and mostly natural consequences. For example, if a child runs around the grocery store after repeatedly told to stop but didn’t listen. Then next time he won’t be able to go shopping with the mother.
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 8:53 am
amother [ Olive ] wrote:
This thread has raised so many thoughts and feelings in me because we value derech eretz.

We say דרך ארץ הייב זיך אן ערלי יוגענט which means before birth.
I talk to my babies about derech eretz.
If I ask my 3 yr old what he wants to be when he is older he says hachnuahdig.
My child who has a hard time in this has a teacher who says she is the most respectful child in the class keh.

I freeeeaaakkkk out inside when I see children acting rude, saying no to parents, not listening right away and more.

But there is another side to this coin.
Instead of having a narrow definition of chutzpah and being so harsh over things that most people don't define as chutzpah, teaching a child to rephrase what they said or to talk to themselves in the mirror the way they spoke to you is probably way more educational.

I hate chutzpah. It's the opposite of everything I am. It makes me feel sick. I also get these urges to punish a child who says something that even grenitzes itself with chutzpah BUT I think being hachnuahdig comes from an inner desire to want to be that way. So yes, children need to learn to say yes and not no to parents, but there must be some way to teach it that talks to their inside more than fear and since I don't know what that is yet, I can't really comment on it.

Also there is no chutzpah in my mother's home or my home but my siblings and I are very meek and not assertive. I wish we would have learned it's OK to say no. I wish I knew how to teach this to my children.

Whatever. It's a Grey area.

So you picked up on the fact that if the word no is a bad word while a child is growing up they don’t magically learn to say no once they’re an adult.
When we are children that is when our brains form, everything we learn gets ingrained in us and becomes our inner voice for a lifetime.
From the way you describe that you feel when you see other people’s children talking back to them, your reaction is quite extreme. As in, it triggers you.
Perhaps it’s your inner child who gets upset because you never had the opportunity to feel safe enough to do that with your parents. Just a thought.
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amother




Lavender
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 9:09 am
#BestBubby wrote:
1. If Punishment does not work, why does HASHEM PUNISH? And WARN us of Punishment?

Do you say "Ani Ma'amin" where if one does not believe that Hashem Rewards and PUNISHES
s/he is an Apikorus?

2. You admit that punishment works to STOP the behavior. That is the goal of punishment.

Yes, we want children to Understand WHY the behavior is wrong. But sometimes a child is too
immature to understand.

We demand that children not run into the street, play with matches even
before they are mature enough to understand.
We ALSO EXPLAIN why this is dangerous so children will follow these rules from their own will.

But children have to Obey even before they understand. We don't understand all the Mitzvos
of the Torah. Some Mitzvos are CHUKIM. We have to follow them anyway.

3. Learning Self Control IS FOR THE CHILD'S SAKE (as well as parents, siblings and others).
A child without self-control is doomed to being unemployable and unmarriageable!

4. Don't make Research your Avodah Zorah. There is a lot of fraud in research, to ensure
that the CONCLUSION is what the researcher wants - to be PC and fit into government agenda.

Fraudulent Research Example 1:

A study that "proves" spanking kids is harmful. The study lumped parents who gave ONE smack
together with parents who beat their children to a pulp. Then the study "concluded" that spanking
is HARMFUL!

No, the study proved that CHILD ABUSE is harmful. The Study did not DIFFERENTIATE
between child abuse and a single smack. This is Fraud to convince parents that "science"
shows giving a smack is harmful.

Fraudulent Research Example 2:

At start of Pandemic, Dr. Zelenko publicized a protocol that prevented nearly 100% deaths and hospitalization - a combination of Hydroxycloroquine (HCQ), Zinc and Antibiotic. This protocol had to be given at the earliest signs of symptoms because not effective once patient is hospitalized.

But some in government did not want a cure because they needed panic to destroy economy and get rid of Trump. So they made a FRAUDULENT STUDY to "prove" that HCQ is dangerous and ineffective.

In the study doctors gave HCQ to Critically ill patients in Hospitals. The doctors gave a MASSIVE OVERDOSE of HCQ. This KILLED the Covid patients. Then the study claimed to "prove" that HCQ
is DANGEROUS and INEFFECTIVE.

No! the Study proved that scientists and researchers can be CROOKS! They did not follow Zelenko's
protocol of giving HCQ at earliest sign BEFORE PATIENT IS HOSPITALIZED! They gave a MASSIVE OVERDOSE which KILLS. A Massive Overdose of ASPIRIN will also kill you -that doesn't prove that
aspirin is dangerous.

So don't blindly believe all "science" and all "research". TRUST THE TORAH more than "science"


Can you fix your keyboard please. These random screams in the middle of your sentences are hard on the eyes.
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amother




Apricot
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 9:11 am
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 10:44 am
amother [ Apricot ] wrote:


You can speak up RESPECTFULLY.

Being an abuser narcissist is not assertive.
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amother




Linen
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 10:52 am
#BestBubby wrote:
1. If Punishment does not work, why does HASHEM PUNISH? And WARN us of Punishment?

Do you say "Ani Ma'amin" where if one does not believe that Hashem Rewards and PUNISHES
s/he is an Apikorus?

2. You admit that punishment works to STOP the behavior. That is the goal of punishment.

Yes, we want children to Understand WHY the behavior is wrong. But sometimes a child is too
immature to understand.

We demand that children not run into the street, play with matches even
before they are mature enough to understand.
We ALSO EXPLAIN why this is dangerous so children will follow these rules from their own will.

But children have to Obey even before they understand. We don't understand all the Mitzvos
of the Torah. Some Mitzvos are CHUKIM. We have to follow them anyway.

3. Learning Self Control IS FOR THE CHILD'S SAKE (as well as parents, siblings and others).
A child without self-control is doomed to being unemployable and unmarriageable!

4. Don't make Research your Avodah Zorah. There is a lot of fraud in research, to ensure
that the CONCLUSION is what the researcher wants - to be PC and fit into government agenda.

Fraudulent Research Example 1:

A study that "proves" spanking kids is harmful. The study lumped parents who gave ONE smack
together with parents who beat their children to a pulp. Then the study "concluded" that spanking
is HARMFUL!

No, the study proved that CHILD ABUSE is harmful. The Study did not DIFFERENTIATE
between child abuse and a single smack. This is Fraud to convince parents that "science"
shows giving a smack is harmful.

Fraudulent Research Example 2:

At start of Pandemic, Dr. Zelenko publicized a protocol that prevented nearly 100% deaths and hospitalization - a combination of Hydroxycloroquine (HCQ), Zinc and Antibiotic. This protocol had to be given at the earliest signs of symptoms because not effective once patient is hospitalized.

But some in government did not want a cure because they needed panic to destroy economy and get rid of Trump. So they made a FRAUDULENT STUDY to "prove" that HCQ is dangerous and ineffective.

In the study doctors gave HCQ to Critically ill patients in Hospitals. The doctors gave a MASSIVE OVERDOSE of HCQ. This KILLED the Covid patients. Then the study claimed to "prove" that HCQ
is DANGEROUS and INEFFECTIVE.

No! the Study proved that scientists and researchers can be CROOKS! They did not follow Zelenko's
protocol of giving HCQ at earliest sign BEFORE PATIENT IS HOSPITALIZED! They gave a MASSIVE OVERDOSE which KILLS. A Massive Overdose of ASPIRIN will also kill you -that doesn't prove that
aspirin is dangerous.

So don't blindly believe all "science" and all "research". TRUST THE TORAH more than "science"

Hashem does not punish us out of anger or vengeance. The "punishment" is a cleansing, to purify the neshama.

People punish little people much of the time out of anger. People have their own ego blinding them. A punishment is an adult's reaction to a child's behavior.

Perhaps there doesn't need to be a reaction. My teenage son says and does things in order to get me to react. You bet I don't.

I am very proactive in parenting. It's much harder but it works to minimize lots and lots of things other parents would punish for.
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amother




Black
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 5:36 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
1. If Punishment does not work, why does HASHEM PUNISH? And WARN us of Punishment?

Do you say "Ani Ma'amin" where if one does not believe that Hashem Rewards and PUNISHES
s/he is an Apikorus?

2. You admit that punishment works to STOP the behavior. That is the goal of punishment.

Yes, we want children to Understand WHY the behavior is wrong. But sometimes a child is too
immature to understand.

We demand that children not run into the street, play with matches even
before they are mature enough to understand.
We ALSO EXPLAIN why this is dangerous so children will follow these rules from their own will.

But children have to Obey even before they understand. We don't understand all the Mitzvos
of the Torah. Some Mitzvos are CHUKIM. We have to follow them anyway.

3. Learning Self Control IS FOR THE CHILD'S SAKE (as well as parents, siblings and others).
A child without self-control is doomed to being unemployable and unmarriageable!

4. Don't make Research your Avodah Zorah. There is a lot of fraud in research, to ensure
that the CONCLUSION is what the researcher wants - to be PC and fit into government agenda.

Fraudulent Research Example 1:

A study that "proves" spanking kids is harmful. The study lumped parents who gave ONE smack
together with parents who beat their children to a pulp. Then the study "concluded" that spanking
is HARMFUL!

No, the study proved that CHILD ABUSE is harmful. The Study did not DIFFERENTIATE
between child abuse and a single smack. This is Fraud to convince parents that "science"
shows giving a smack is harmful.

Fraudulent Research Example 2:

At start of Pandemic, Dr. Zelenko publicized a protocol that prevented nearly 100% deaths and hospitalization - a combination of Hydroxycloroquine (HCQ), Zinc and Antibiotic. This protocol had to be given at the earliest signs of symptoms because not effective once patient is hospitalized.

But some in government did not want a cure because they needed panic to destroy economy and get rid of Trump. So they made a FRAUDULENT STUDY to "prove" that HCQ is dangerous and ineffective.

In the study doctors gave HCQ to Critically ill patients in Hospitals. The doctors gave a MASSIVE OVERDOSE of HCQ. This KILLED the Covid patients. Then the study claimed to "prove" that HCQ
is DANGEROUS and INEFFECTIVE.

No! the Study proved that scientists and researchers can be CROOKS! They did not follow Zelenko's
protocol of giving HCQ at earliest sign BEFORE PATIENT IS HOSPITALIZED! They gave a MASSIVE OVERDOSE which KILLS. A Massive Overdose of ASPIRIN will also kill you -that doesn't prove that
aspirin is dangerous.

So don't blindly believe all "science" and all "research". TRUST THE TORAH more than "science"



Regarding research, it looks like you did your own research on those studies and came to your own conclusion. I did that with the studies I reference as well! I invite you to do the same with studies on punishing! I’d love to hear what you think of them.

Re #3, we both agree that self control is a crucial skill for a child to learn. My question is - how do we teach a child the crucial skill of self control? If you say through punishment, can you explain me what punishment does to a child and how it teaches him that skill?
Because I believe that punishment is basically a parent not ready to do the job of actually teaching the child and instead, telling the child - figure it out on your own or you get in trouble.
I believe that there are many ways to teach self control, but punishment is just getting yourself out of teaching and expecting your child to teach himself.

Now there will be a certain percent of children who if they are scared enough, will figure out how to teach themselves to be respectful. But the parent did not teach that child, he taught himself, and there will be some kids who just can’t figure it out on their own, no matter what kind of punishment you give.

So punishment really services the parent against the better interest of the child. Which brings me to #2 - punishment works to stop the behavior. Exactly! Stopping the behavior is on the better interest of the parent. Teaching the child instead, is in the better interest of the child.

And don’t tell me you teach the child separately besides for punishing. If you are coming to a place where you need to punish, that is the place you need to be teaching.
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