Ready for beta readers!!! (See OP)

Kiwi13

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 4:48 pm

singleagain wrote:

Yes. I'm up for that.

Also, you should have ppl who are not so familiar with Judaism to read it so that way they can tell you if something that you're taking for granted and not explaining needs to be explained

My best friend is willing

Thanks!!!

I'm inching my way toward finishing the first draft. Then I'll rework a few things I already know need adjusting, and comb through it for other mistakes. Then it'll be beta reading time, which I'm excited (and a little nervous!) about. :-)

singleagain

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 5:10 pm

Kiwi13 wrote:

I totally hear that. Good luck

singleagain

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 6:55 pm

I read the new question and I still vote do not dilute it at least if not without first getting an opinion from someone who maybe is not so familiar with Judaism.

I mean think about how many Yiddish words I have seeped into the English language....

And to be honest the world is trying to be more and more inclusive and understand about other cultures more the only way that's going to happen is if people from those cultures speak out

Kiwi13

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 7:24 pm

singleagain wrote:

Good point. I look forward to your feedback on the manuscript! :-)

singleagain

Sat, Apr 24 2021, 9:12 pm

Kiwi13 wrote:

Good point. I look forward to your feedback on the manuscript! :-)

Squee! I can't wait.

cbsp

Sat, Apr 24 2021, 11:56 pm

I also say don't dilute it.

The human condition is universal. It's not like there haven't been other "exposé" style books out there regarding the frum community. Why not use the opportunity to expand on that impression?

If your story has frum people who are normal then normal people have foibles. It will have a different feel than if your intent is to besmirch or mock community practices...

Kiwi13

Sun, Apr 25 2021, 8:41 am

cbsp wrote:

Good point. Normal is relative though lol. Definitely nothing mocking of Judaism, and definitely not an expose, but I also want to not have to worry about stray comments from characters being taken out of context.

Alright, you guys. I’m going to just give this my all and keep it as is, and I’ll add a couple questions for my beta readers about this stuff specifically.

Thanks so much 😊

shanie5

Sun, Apr 25 2021, 8:08 pm

Just want to say that I read your Blood in the bathtub story and really enjoyed it. Looking forward to reading the book when it's published.

Kiwi13

Sun, Apr 25 2021, 8:41 pm

shanie5 wrote:

Just want to say that I read your Blood in the bathtub story and really enjoyed it. Looking forward to reading the book when it's published.

Haha thanks!! I’m happy you liked it. Caught me off guard for a second hearing the story summed up like that... but I guess it’s not that different than the actual title. So... :-)

Amelia Bedelia

Sun, Apr 25 2021, 8:43 pm

Kiwi13 wrote:

Haha thanks!! I’m happy you liked it. Caught me off guard for a second hearing the story summed up like that... but I guess it’s not that different than the actual title. So... :-)

What book is that?

Kiwi13

Sun, Apr 25 2021, 8:46 pm

Amelia Bedelia wrote:

What book is that?

It’s one of my short stories that I linked to on page 2 of this thread. “The Crime Scene in My Bathroom”

PinkFridge

Sun, Apr 25 2021, 8:53 pm

Kiwi13 wrote:

NEW QUESTION: What if I took out (or clearly explained) any FRUM content and kept the Jewish setting and symbolism? Would that be acceptable in the secular market? (I want to avoid a possible chilul Hashem). Word gets around, I'm sure. So if the book is "kosher" (or kosher ENOUGH), frum people will still read it. Maybe not all, but I'm willing to chance it. I'm still on the fence about this whole thing. I might rewrite the frum aspects anyway to make them more generally relatable. At this point that mainly just means taking out some Hebrew/Yiddish words and phrases. Basically, my question is this: Is it better to dilute the Jewish overtones, or to eliminate them completely if I try the secular route?

I'm finishing up my 9th book and need to make a decision about publishing strategies. It's a novel, and there's nothing raunchy in it or anything, but it's unlikely to fly in the frum publishing world, which is sad, because I reaalllly wanted it to - at least at first. The more I spread my wings in the writing arena, the harder I'm finding it to keep within the "acceptable" guidelines.

Anyway, my question is this:

I could try to water down some of this book and pitch it to frum publishers, OR, I could adjust it slightly and pitch it to secular publishers. Not that I'm biased or anything, lol, but I really believe this book stands a chance of being picked up in the mainstream market. I also think it could remain a stronger book if I go that route.

BUUUUT... the frum world needs quality books (which I think this could be - again, my purely objective opinion! ;-)) But... I'll probably have to sacrifice some of the quality if I try for the frum market. That sounds bad, but hopefully you get what I mean?

Anyone care to weigh in?

What do YOU want?
More exposure?
$$?
To try something different?

How do you think your story can be told most effectively?

Kiwi13

Sun, Apr 25 2021, 9:37 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

What do YOU want?
More exposure?
$$?
To try something different?

How do you think your story can be told most effectively?

Oh gosh, these are the questions I’ve been mulling over back and forth!!!!

If you’re cool with me rambling out my thoughts, read on. (If not, I guess I’ll never know!)

I’ve been playing around and testing my own limits, having fun and seeing what I can do (and learning to do more things) in the writing arena. Professionally, so far, I’ve worked in several genres: self-help, children’s picture books, children’s comics/graphic novel, middle grade fiction, memoir, humor, etc. I’ve been trying my hand at a few more - speculative fiction, horror, etc. and this is the first project so far that’s clicked. I really believe I have the setup for an enjoyable trilogy. (Of course, readers will be the judge of that, but all I can do is take an educated guess. The other things I’ve tried so far have either been scrapped or back burnered indefinitely - I’m honest with myself about quality. They were good practice/fun to write/enjoyable for me/etc. but not heading in any sort of commercial direction.)

Anyway, so with this book/series, I can see it playing out a couple different ways. I could self publish, which to do right would cost too much money for me to pour into anything right now. I could pitch it to a frum publisher, and I might. I have 2 in mind that I’d like to approach. If they both turn it down, I’ll almost certainly take the secular route. I’ve made halfhearted attempts at pitching to agents in the past, and I think if I really gave it a go, I could land a contract. I hope this isn’t sounding arrogant. I really don’t mean for it to sound that way. For all I know I’m off base - obviously since I’m ME, I’m biased, I get it. I’ve been writing professionally for almost 15 years though, so I think I’ve got a decent sense of things. More importantly, when I decide to go for it, I don’t quit. I landed my first traditional publishing contract at age 20. Somewhere I saved my approximately 50 rejection letters that came before the acceptance. Basically, I don’t plan to give up after one or two or ten tries. I’m realistic about how the industry works and understand the elements that need to align in order to get an acceptance. Usually things the author can’t know ahead of time - sales and marketing strategies within the publishing house, how it fits within their upcoming catalogues, etc etc.

Getting in almost anywhere mainstream requires an agent. I know that. I also know that even though the big places cast a wide net, that doesn’t mean instant recognition or sales. Depending on the specifics, yeah you could get a decent shot, but you still need to do most of the legwork. That’s not an area where I excel. I need to learn how to give better book talks. I’ve done it in the past and I always felt like a fish out of water. Stage fright. Speaking fright in general. I’ve been told most of my life that I “hide behind my writing.” On the one hand, I’ve made that work for me. On the other hand... you get the idea. It’s not a good long term plan, and it undermines writing careers when authors can’t or won’t get out there.

Jewish world is much less intimidating to me. I feel better about the idea of contributing books to the frum community. That gives it an extra spark of meaning. It makes me excited to put the book out there and say, hey look - a new book! it’s kosher! And it’s fun! On a selfish note, as far as building up more of a writing presence, it’s easier to establish yourself within a smaller market than a larger one.

But yeah, the secular market is muuuuch larger. Even though the book/series wouldn’t have “hashgacha” that way, some frum readers would probably still read it. There’s something exciting in the idea of “I wonder if I could “make it” in a wider market, you know? That’s very exciting too. There IS a bigger chance of it becoming a bigger thing if I go that route. Will it be a NY Times bestseller? Probably not. Again, I’m realistic about the chances of big-time success. But there’s still that glimmer of hope... you never know until you try. I kind of want to try. I kind of want to see how far I can swim as a tiny little fish in a great big pond.

So I’m conflicted. I hope that wasn’t too much blabbering honesty. It’s the truth of where I’m at.

shanie5

Sun, Apr 25 2021, 10:01 pm

Kiwi13 wrote:

Haha thanks!! I’m happy you liked it. Caught me off guard for a second hearing the story summed up like that... but I guess it’s not that different than the actual title. So... :-)

I read it late last night and posted today-it's lucy I even remembered it TMI

Hope to read the other 2 shorts soon.

penguin

Sun, Apr 25 2021, 10:46 pm

One thing I would say is that a book for the Jewish world should have some positive message. There should be some emunah in how the characters deal with their challenges.

And there's no reason that can't exist in a book for the world at large as well.

I think you can have a glossary in the back for possibly unfamiliar words.

I'm going to go see if I can print out one of the stories for bath-time reading!

amother

Slateblue

Sun, Apr 25 2021, 10:59 pm

wordsmith wrote:

Own Voices is definitely a trend in publishing today, particularly when it comes to children and YA books. However, that movement, which encourages mainstream publishers to publish books that highlight minority communities, hasn't trended down to mainstream books with Orthodox Jewish characters. Jewish books in general aren't considered "Own Voices" in many publishing corners. Are there exceptions? Absolutely, it's just a challenge.

Why is that?

amother

Slateblue

Sun, Apr 25 2021, 11:06 pm

singleagain wrote:

There are Reddit threads that are like you know what thing takes you out of a TV show or movie right away You know things like how they never say bye when hanging up the phone and now that I see it it bothers me so I can definitely beta read that

Can you elaborate on that? Sounds interesting

my mama

Sun, Apr 25 2021, 11:28 pm

Kiwi13 wrote:

If you find the symbolism helpful in moving the plot along I would recommend you keep it. Don't completely sanitize it. You still want it to be yours.

ETA
I'm not saying that you must cut out the Jewyness. But even if you do, don't go with a completely sanitized version.

singleagain

Mon, Apr 26 2021, 12:33 am

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

Can you elaborate on that? Sounds interesting

I see it on buzzfeed (which mined it from reddit) all the time ... What movie months are unrealistic and take you out of the plot?

https://www.buzzfeed.com/morga.....ments

https://www.buzzfeed.com/ajani.....-hate

https://www.buzzfeed.com/steph.....dauto

And I get it.. in movies you need to speed the plot along and stuff ... But there are some things now that I've been made aware of it that I can't just forget about... I find myself mentally adding the missing thing in the movie.. example, someone had tattoos removed and I mentally added a few days off rest and red skin between the removal scene and the next scene which was supposed to be the next day... Or like... It always annoyed me when they say "last week xyz happened" on the last episode, but timeline wise.. it was either less or more than a week.

Kiwi13

Mon, Apr 26 2021, 1:54 am

penguin wrote:

Alright, so.... the title (for now at least) is “Anything for a Second Chance,” and the plot lines and character arcs all run along different angles of the themes of regret and redemption. It’s got a good deal of nuance, different characters facing things differently, different meanings that can be ascribed to events and ideas, and some “things aren’t always what they seem” stuff. That’s where some of the Jewish symbolism comes in - Purim/venahafoch hu. If I edited out Jewish content, I’d obviously need to replace that mechanism in the book - and I can. I mapped out an alternative already. But the way I have it now is a lot stronger, so if it makes sense to keep it, I want to.

There are some positive messages in the book, but they’re not the heavy handed Emunah type of messages that often show up in frum books. It’s just not that kind of book. It’s the kind that makes you think about human nature and wonder about introspective kinds of questions, but there’s nothing preachy or “the moral of the story is....” Nothing like that. It’s not in my nature to write purely fluff stories, even fiction, so it’s got some deeper meaning to it. The way I’m doing this one hopefully presents a fictional story in a realistic enough way to make people think and come away with something more than just a story, especially once the series is complete. But there’s not necessarily one big takeaway or anything like that. Am I explaining this okay?