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Forum
-> Parenting our children
-> Preschoolers
BinahYeteirah
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 Thu, Oct 06 2005, 11:31 pm
We have a rule for our three-year-old daughter that she is only allowed to have one or two candies at shul, and that before she eats them she must bring them to her Tatty so he can make sure they are kosher. Is this a realistic expectation for a 3 yo?
Actually, I'd prefer that she not have any sugar before the Shabbos/Yuntif meals (we prefer to save the sweets as a treat after these special meals), but with all the other kids gorging themselves with wild abandon, I did not want her to be totally left out. We also did not want to force her to hide her candy eating from her Tatty. That she bring the candy to her Tatty before eating it is essential for us, because the shul closest to our house is attended by people who do not keep kosher or who do not keep it to our standards (especially those who come in for bar mitzvahs and the like and bring their own candy). Some of the candies have wrappers with no words or images and we cannot be sure if these candies are kosher or not, so we only allow dd to eat those with a hecksher on the wrapper.
Our rule is not working so well so far. We ask people (adults!) not to give dd candy, and they roll their eyes at us and give it to her anyway! If someone gives her candy and says, "It is kosher," dd just accepts this and does not bring the candy to her Tatty. I told my husband he should talk to these people and explain that she is supposed to bring the candy to him and is only allowed a couple pieces, but he says they will be offended that we do not trust their kashrus. I say it has nothing to do with trusting their kashrus individually, it is simply a rule dd must learn so that we can be sure that she is not eating non-kosher food. What about kids with, CV"S, serious allergies or the like!?! I know my daughter certainly behaves differently when she's had sugar and she, B"H , doesn't have these issues.
I told him that if she cannot follow this rule then maybe she should sit by her Tatty during the service. He says it is not realistic to expect her to sit during the whole davening and not play with her friends. Maybe she should just stay home with me and the baby. I think that is a good "logical consequence". If she does not follow the candy rule she must stay at home, because it is our job to be sure that she eats kosher food.
So far I think I have solved my own problem, but we still can't be sure that she will follow our rules because we my husband cannot see her the entire time she is playing. So, is this realistic?
Does anyone else hate the candy free-for-all that shul has become? I am not opposed to an occasional treat, especially l'kavod Shabbos, but do these kids even eat the Shabbos meal after eating so much nosh? It's gross if you ask me.
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stem
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Thu, Oct 06 2005, 11:42 pm
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Personally, I would not send my 3 year old to Shul at all under the circumstances you are describing. At her age, she should be supervised at all times, all the more so if other adults are going around giving out food without the parents permission.
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hardwrknmom
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Thu, Oct 06 2005, 11:42 pm
no candy here- no need for it- kids don't need it. Theres plenty of healthy "goodies" that are good for the kids.!
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Motek
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Thu, Oct 06 2005, 11:45 pm
If you don't want her to feel deprived and different than the other kids, why don't you supply your own nosh for her and tell her she can only have nosh from you?
If you still think she can't be relied on to eat only your nosh or nosh that she has checked with you (and I think 3 is too young) then yes, why not keep her home another year? What are you sending her to shul anyway - to give yourself a break, right? After all, she's not sitting and davening!
But if you decide to keep her home, I don't think you should tell her it's a logical consequence of her not listening. I think she's way too young to be given the responsibility of checking all food with you. And if it would be allergies, would you rely on a 3 year old? I don't think so.
I agree with you about nosh in shul.
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BinahYeteirah
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Fri, Oct 07 2005, 12:05 am
Okay, so staying home it is!
I was thinking that it was too much. I did want a break for myself, and also fun for her. I think going to shul should be for davening (or organized kid's activites or maybe play in a kid's area not in the main shul), but when no other kids do that (not even kids above bar/bat mitzvah at this shul), I'm not holding my breath. She loves to get out and play with other kids, but I can't get out with her everyday. Shabbos was two more times for her to play with other kids, and now it will be two more times for her to be stuck at home with Mommy. I'm fun and all, but not as much fun as other kids.
Now I'm going to take this a little off-topic, but if you all think that 3 is too young to entrust a child with the responsibility of monitoring the kashrus of food (as I do!), then would you send your child to a Jewish school where the kids bring non-kosher food for lunch? I plan to send my dd to school when she is 3.5 in January, but in the local (Chabad) school, everyone brings their own lunches. Again, many attending this school do not keep kosher or do not keep it as we do. I think that 3 is too young to expect a child not to share food with friends, and the teachers can't see every child at every second. The teachers are great, but I'm sure things get past them sometimes. That's not acceptable to me. So is she too young to go to school? All the other parents I've asked state that she should just know not to share, that we should talk to her about not sharing food, that maybe I need to learn to "let go", etc. BUT as we've established here, 3 is too young for this responsibility. My only other alternative is to send her to a non-Lubavitch school where all the kids come from kosher homes (maybe they do not keep the same minhagim, but they come from kosher/no TV/ etc. homes). I've read a letter from the Rebbe that one shouldn't send a child to a non-Lubavitch school, even if you think the other school is better for "kadosh" reasons. (We're Lubavitch.)
ETA: Obviously another alternative to the shool issue is to keep her home until she can be trusted with this reponsibility. In that case, I will, of course, be considered to be depriving her of necessary stimulation/socialization/learning. It's had to provide all the necessary stimulation for a older child wehn there are other younger children (babies) in the home.
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chavamom
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Fri, Oct 07 2005, 12:44 am
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Usually at that age the teachers monitor and enforce a 'no sharing' rule.
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BinahYeteirah
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Fri, Oct 07 2005, 1:04 am
I was also told my another mother that if I don't put nosh into my kid's lunchbox, then she will find ways to share despite the "no sharing" rule. Sounds like truth to me. So now we are back to the issue of whether it is realistic to expect kids to have a limited amount of nosh given the seemingly sugar-dripping culture in many shuls, schools, and Jewish homes.
ETA: This is just one of the issues; there are many here.
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chavamom
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Fri, Oct 07 2005, 2:02 am
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Are the classes that big that they can't monitor? The school my kids are in, at age 3, they have a very small teacher/student ration (I think the limit is 6/1? So you could theoretically have 12 kids, one teacher and an aide). If the classes are so large they can't monitor well enough, perhaps it's a sign (for many reasons) that she's better off at home anyway!
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Meema2Kids
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Fri, Oct 07 2005, 8:43 am
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I think you can expect that the teachers will enforce the no sharing rule. At 3, my DD came home with the "no sharing food" mantra and wouldn't even share food with her brother.
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happymom
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Fri, Oct 07 2005, 9:32 am
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I agrewe that if you make a huge issue about nosh your kids will end up grabbing and eaiting MORE nosh.
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BinahYeteirah
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Sun, Oct 09 2005, 3:19 am
| chavamom wrote: | | Are the classes that big that they can't monitor? The school my kids are in, at age 3, they have a very small teacher/student ration (I think the limit is 6/1? So you could theoretically have 12 kids, one teacher and an aide). If the classes are so large they can't monitor well enough, perhaps it's a sign (for many reasons) that she's better off at home anyway! |
I think the ratio is similar at this school. I believe the class sizes are around 20-25 kids with 4 teachers. I don't know how difficult it is for the teachers to enforce the rule (maybe one teacher is taking someone potty, while another is preping the next "lesson", and a third is dealing with a behavior issue with a student, I don't know...). I was just going off what I was told about nosh and sharing. Hmm...
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BinahYeteirah
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Sun, Oct 09 2005, 3:20 am
| Meema2Kids wrote: | | I think you can expect that the teachers will enforce the no sharing rule. At 3, my DD came home with the "no sharing food" mantra and wouldn't even share food with her brother. |
That's comforting!
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BinahYeteirah
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Sun, Oct 09 2005, 3:30 am
Well this Shabbos, we ended up letting our dd go to Kabbalos Shabbos/Maariv with Tatty, but not Shachris. He said that there aren't very many people there at night and that dd stays close to him so he can monitor her constantly. At some point during the service the Rabbi called all the kids up to the front of the shul, blessed them, and gave each one a candy. My daughter took the candy, then gave it back! And said, "Here, take it back, I'm only allowed to have lollies from my Tatty."  Then the Rabbi apparently launched into a speech about how "that" is good chinuch, etc.  Well, I have to say that gave me nachas. It doesn't solve the issue, but it gives me chizuk to keep going. Sometimes I just feel like I'm repeating myself all day. If we can get her to refuse candy, we can instill other things as well!
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Tefila
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Sun, Oct 09 2005, 4:05 am
| Quote: | | If we can get her to refuse candy, we can instill other things as well! |
Just be careful not to go overboard or it may one day backfire talking from experiance 
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BinahYeteirah
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Sun, Oct 09 2005, 5:12 am
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What do you mean? I would only want to instill good middos... You've scared me!
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Motek
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Sun, Oct 09 2005, 9:54 am
| BinahYeteirah wrote: | | My daughter took the candy, then gave it back! And said, "Here, take it back, I'm only allowed to have lollies from my Tatty." |
just want to mention another point about your daughter playing at shul - the safety issue
Who was supervising your 3 yr. old when she was not next to your husband?
| Quote: | | would you send your child to a Jewish school where the kids bring non-kosher food for lunch? |
seems to me that this is an enormous problem!
it's one thing to have children eating non-kosher food when they are not on school premises, but quite another thing for them to be eating treif WHILE IN SCHOOL, EVEN IF THERE IS NO SHARING!
are there perhaps enough parents that can jointly approach the principal and ask for a change in this policy?
I think your question - should you send to this school or not, should be asked of a Lubavitcher, chasidishe rav.
as far as her socializing - if she's going to school daily, I don't think you have to worry AT ALL about her not socializing on Shabbos!
the "no sharing" rule sounds  how do you teach sharing with a no-sharing rule? are the kids taught "no food sharing but yes toys sharing"?
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carrot
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Sun, Oct 09 2005, 11:01 am
Maybe Freilich is saying that if you are too strict about the no-nosh rule, she will get resentful and go the opposite way when she is a little older?
(Just guessing, Freilich!)
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BinahYeteirah
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Mon, Oct 10 2005, 12:07 am
There are some older girls that have adopted our daughter as their "mascot", if you will. They walk around with her and watch her in the kid's areas of the shul (there is a swingset in the fenced shul yard and an area inside where they have children's services). These girls are 8-9 years old. Not really old enough to be babysitting, but I thought she'd be okay with them in the limited environs of the shul with other adults around (in particular those who run the children's services, although I am not sure they consider it their responsibility to keep tabs on each individual child). For the most part, I left it up to my husband's judgment , as I am not at shul to judge the situation myself.
Re: the school with non-kosher food
In the school's defense, I hope that kids are not bringing mamish treif food into school. The school distributes lists of acceptable food products, such as where to buy bread, etc. Since some of these children do not come from kosher homes, however, even if they purchase the recommended brands of food, I would not consider their sandwiches, for example, made in their home kitchens to be kosher. Also, I doubt anyone is actually checking to be sure that the parents are buying the approved foods (how could they?). Even so, the offical school policy is that only kosher foods are to be brought to school, so unless they will open a cafeteria, this may be as good as it gets. This school is considered a very attractive, desirable school by other, non-Lubavitch, communities, and the principal of the school encourages polices that make it even more so (e.g. Bais Rivkah, not Yeshivah, policy of Israeli Hebrew pronunciation, rather than traditional Lubavitch pronunciation, strong secular studies, etc.). I doubt any local rav will encourage me to do anything except enroll my daughter at BR; all their kids go there! I'm considered a bit meshuga to even question it. Maybe if I ask a rav elsewhere, I'll get a different answer.
For now, my daughter is home all week with me. The school year here goes with the calender, so school starts after summer vacation at the end of February. She'll be home with me for several more months and she's bored despite our playgroups and other activities. Maybe when she goes to school, she'll be happy to spend a low-key day with me at home, and, of course, I'll be more than happy to be with her. Also, I'm considering sending her part-time.
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BinahYeteirah
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Mon, Oct 10 2005, 1:26 am
| carrot wrote: | Maybe Freilich is saying that if you are too strict about the no-nosh rule, she will get resentful and go the opposite way when she is a little older?
(Just guessing, Freilich!) |
Well, I'm not sure what Freilich meant either, but if this is what she meant:
I don't have a "no-nosh" rule. I am fine with dd eating it, but I want her to eat it after meals and as a "treat", not a "food group". If she is allowed to eat as much as she wants, she doesn't touch the meal. Maybe a sip of kiddush and a bit of challah and that's it. We usually have desert after the Shabbos meals. This past Shabbos, we had honey cake and soy ice cream. Is that not enough sweets for any child? When we stay with people, I let dd have the same treats the other children get, but, again, she doesn't eat afterward. I don't think that's okay, especially on a regular basis. For example, on R"H, there was a woman in shul (a different shul than the one near our house) who was giving out 4-5 different kinds of nosh to the kids. I knew her, and I could see it was kosher and I allowed dd to eat some of it (of course she did not want the healthier, but still tasty, snacks I brought, she wanted what the other kids were having). At the meal, she ate *1* bite of chicken-- that's it! So much sugar-- YUCK! I don't get worked up over it, but to have it happen every week that she eats nothing but sugar for 24 hours is too much for me.
So, that was part of my question that I opened this thread with: is my expectation realistic? Will my daughter become "resentful" because I'd like her to have room left over for dinner, rather than filling up on candy? After all other parents often feel it's fine for their kids to have multiple servings of sugary snacks before meals. So maybe I should just give up? I don't believe in forcing a child to eat dinner, I just want some common-sense guidelines about treats being for appropriate times. Is that realistic?
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chavamom
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Mon, Oct 10 2005, 1:55 am
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I have not found that the 'no sharing food' rule confuses kids about sharing in general. Esp. when it is explained in terms of 'people have different levels of kashrus'. It's not just a matter of 'kosher vs. treif'. Those that keep chalav yisrael or pas yisrael don't want their kids eating from those who don't keep that level either, you know?
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