Neighbor Banned Her Daughter From Playing in Our Home

keym

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 9:50 am

Lovable wrote:

Agreed. Ok, so we are on the same page. Neighbor went about it the wrong way, OP was hurt
But seems like other posters on this thread think that the neighbor is nuts for trying to protect her family standards

Nope.
Posters on this thread are protesting 2 things
1) the lack of communication
2) the fact that OWNING a smartphone is such a black stain that they won't come over even on Shabbos.
Like I said earlier, I may not want my kid going to a friend if their OTD teenager was acting rebellious around my kid, but I wouldn't ban my kid from going to a friend merely because he HAS an OTD sibling.
I don't want my kid eating chalav Stam, or certain hechsherim. But the fact that a family HAS Hershey bars in their cabinet and will eat it when my child leaves shouldn't make their house a treif place for my child to play.

amother

Yarrow

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 9:56 am

Lovable wrote:

According to YOUR family's standards, your post might be 100% true. But it is obviously not the case with a family of different standards. And if you cant respect that then just keep quiet. Dont dub them 'holier than thou'. There is nothing wrong with having, setting and enforcing ones standards.
In familys where smartphones are not acceptable, they might have beautiful erev Shabbos PHONE calls with bobby (old fashioned, but remember those?). And dont think that their bobby is less happy then yours
Lets not be silly
Every single one of us have standards that we are not ready to lower
For one it might be smartphone use
for another kashrus
for a third, middos
Lets respect each other
Maybe Op's neighbor should have done it in a nicer way, and I truly feel for OP who's feelings were hurt.
But thats got nothing to do with the fact that the neighbor is trying to raise her kids with standards she is not ready to lower.

Well said. Your value may be to bring up your kids to be broad minded and exposed to the world out there. Others have different values. Ironically, it’s kind of narrow minded to judge them through the prism of your values rather than being broad minded enough to acknowledge that there might be valid values other than yours out there. The neighbor could have been more diplomatic but criticizing her choices for her family and belittling what she sees as maintaining her familys values and standards is quite narrow minded.

amother

Camellia

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 9:58 am

Lovable wrote:

I respect their choices, I don't respect their attitudes about looking down upon others. There's nothing wrong with any standards - as long as it doesn't hurt or create divide among us. When it does cause that, it's time for pause and reconsideration.

And you keep missing the point I've been trying to make. Having a piece of tech in the house is not a standard like kashrus. It is a necessary tool nowadays for many, and it will be for most in the very near future. It's just like having a car, or books in the house. Its the ACTION what you do with them, that's creates a standard. Just having it in the house doesn't define anything or mean anything. It's something you need for daily life.

For your standard in kashrus - do you ban food? Or do you ban certain hechsherim? The same applies to tech - do you ban tech in its entirety, or do you ban unfiltered, unprotected access? The idea of banning an essential part of life is not a standard. And its not something that will be feasible to be sustained regardless. When it becomes an absolute essential, which will be in the very near future, will all these people suddenly consider themselves 'dropping their standards', when they have to join the bandwagon. Or will they just be joining our ranks then, and figuring out the proper way to live with them? We're doing it now, they'll be doing it then. The timeframe doesn't create a higher or lower standard. It's just called adapting to life, and working it out in a Torah'dige way.

I respect everyone and anyone, regardless of my opinion of their choices. You can't say the same for any person who goes around arbitrarily banning people's homes based on assumptions and without even the decency of a conversation.

keym

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 10:00 am

amother [ Camellia ] wrote:

I agree with every word.
I wish I knew who you are.

amother

Yarrow

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 10:01 am

keym wrote:

Do you think the neighbor is wrong to assume that it won’t stay in the cabinet? Most women with smartphones (myself included) are unable to put the phone down when their own kids come in the house and need their attention (see the other thread with the poll). Is it reasonable to think they will do so on an ongoing basis just for their kids friend?

amother

Quince

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 10:03 am

keym wrote:

Under my screen name.
I have banned my kids from friends houses. I guess I've been "bentched" with some gems of friends parents. The parent who "doesn't hold" of allergies and refused to check labels before giving out snack. The parent who believed that 5 year olds can be supervised by a 7year old while the mother ran out to the grocery store. The family where the older teenage son creeped me out in his attentions to his preschool sister and my daughter.
I never told these families but I also never told my kids.

All those who think the mother is to be lauded for increasing kedusha or whatever. Here's the thing. Not parallel, but an example it's the difference between banning going to a family because their OTD teenager is acting inappropriately in public IN FRONT OF THE KIDS (drinking, drugs, girls, foul language, whatever) or banning a family because of the fact that they have an OTD child
The former, I can respect as a necessity and parents call despite being hurtful. The latter is just plain hurtful and unnecessary.

The same thing. I can 100% understand not wanting your kids being involved with phones and internet's, especially in circles where we sign to restrict our children's access. That would mean telling the parent no screens for the kids, and maybe the mother shouldn't be glued to the screen while hosting. (I wouldn't make that call, but I hear it) as opposed to what's happening now - banning a child just FOR OWNING THE PHONE.

OK. Let the tomatoes fly.
I was brave and posted under my screen name so be gentle.

No tomatoes.
Standing ovation.
I feel the same way and said something to that effect upthread. You just said it better.
Everyone is entitled to their standards. It s the communication and disrespectful attitude thats the issue.
Although of course in the examples you gave its hard to find respect for those who don’t honor basic allergy and safety standards. And yet, even then, like you, I would just avoid the playdates. No gossip necessary.
The problem in the OPs case and in some other peoples ,is the fact AND the way that they tell their children and act holier than…

We can have our standards without an attitude.

keym

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 10:07 am

amother [ Yarrow ] wrote:

Again, why assume.
Communicate.
"Chani is so excited to play at your Leah's house. We have a family standard that we don't want our children to be around adults using smartphones and internet. Would you be willing to put your phone/tablet/computer away in a cabinet for the duration of the playdate? If that's too hard, maybe you'd rather Leah come to our house and Chani goes to yours just on Shabbos?"
You see communication and respect.
If the parent says no, or says yes and then ignores you, then you have a basis to not trust.

Chayalle

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 10:07 am

amother [ Yarrow ] wrote:

I sometimes feel I should thank Hashem for making me be born exactly when He did. Where there was no internet (I heard vague conversations about it's existence when I was in college. When I first started working as a computer programmer, we still typed up letters, printed them out, and hand delivered them throughout the company - there was no email!) and no smartphones....So I didn't grow up used to these things, and they are not habit-forming for me.

I watch my sister's kids every day, and she's annoyed that I forget to bring my phone downstairs so she can't just text me if she's running late because I probably won't see it. (and like I said, having a phone around my niece is pretty pointless...dunno why she wants the real phone, not the toy one I bought her, if she sees it.)

My standard is - I aim to raise my kids that even if they will have smartphones, they should not be attached to it. I hope they do put the phone down when their kids come in the house and need attention.

amother

Camellia

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 10:13 am

amother [ Yarrow ] wrote:

Quick question: Let's take this 'value' and place it on a similar item - a mailbox. A mailbox has the potential to bring into the home dirty magazines, missionary items and what not. If someone bans mailboxes because of this, refuses to put one up, and doesn't let their children play in the homes that have a mailbox, would you also call this a value?

We implement features to block those out. We screen the mail before we bring it into the home, we cancel any pieces of mail from unwelcome mailing houses, etc. But we don't go around banning mailboxes, and pretend its a value. It's just someone who refuses to come by with the times and learn appropriate behaviors. I respect their right to do as they please, but that doesn't make their choice a value.

amother

Yarrow

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 10:18 am

I think some are conflating having standards with a holier than thou attitude and looking down on others.
They are not synonymous. I can admire a secular woman who decides to start wearing pants instead of mini skirts and starts keeping kashrut when she is inside her home as a growing person and even feel that she is greater than me because of her growth trajectory but still feel that it is detrimental for my kids to hangout with her at this point. The two are not mutually exclusive.

amother

Yarrow

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 10:31 am

amother [ Camellia ] wrote:

There are whole communities who have adopted this value system based on their gedolim. You can take issue with their leaders and say they don’t know a mailbox from a smartphone. These manhigim are probably smarter than you give them credit for. To you it is “not coming with the times and learning appropriate behaviors” but they have a right to their assessment which is obviously different from yours.

The analogy is also somewhat flawed. Most people are successful at using their mailbox properly. Most people do not use smartphones appropriately (see poll in the other thread).

Right now these communities are living with their values and it is obviously working for them even if it is not perfect. What will these communities do when not having a smartphone becomes impossible? Ten years ago smartphones as we know them didn’t exist. Who knows what will be 10 years from now. I remember 15 years ago when people were mocking those who didn’t want internet in the home. They said 10 years down the line your fridge, car, and oven will need internet. You won’t be able to function. Yet here it is 15 years later and these families are getting along just fine. I’m sure they will continue to reassess on an ongoing basis as they have been doing for a number of years.

amother

DarkPurple

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 11:06 am

amother [ Yarrow ] wrote:

That’s what was said to jewish mothers a century ago who tried to cover their hair, keep Shabbos, and taharas hamishpacha, and refused to assimilate:
Freaks, mental [slow people], why don’t you go to the moon? You can keep Shabbos there.

Sad that women who were in Bais Yaakov a short time ago can’t even appreciate and acknowledge real sacrifice even if they aren’t holding there.

Are you conflating internet usage with basic halacha?

Should you be shunned from your community for using the internet, which you clearly are?

Hmmm. This group is for frum women, but if using the internet is a violation of stam halacha, then none of us are actually frum, so we should all be kicked out.

amother

Chocolate

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 11:12 am

amother [ Yarrow ] wrote:

When I read your post it makes me feel that you have a bigger issue with the actual idea of people owning a smartphone than them using the internet

amother

Yarrow

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 11:34 am

amother [ DarkPurple ] wrote:

The child was not permitted to visit on Shabbat, so clearly the issue was owning a smartphone, not using it in the child's presence.

I’m not sure what goes on in other homes but on shabbos my husband and I will often talk about videos that went around on WhatsApp and the like. The Meron videos, the Stolin bleachers collapse, the frum guy hugging random people in Manhattan for world peace, a cool IDF tweet, and all sorts of funny or interesting things we’ve seen over the week. Sometimes we will discuss a back and forth I had on the WhatsApp family chat or the like. My high school daughter hates it so we try to limit it when she’s around but we can’t censor ourselves all the time. I would totally get it if a yeshivish mother would not want her daughter hanging around even on shabbos.