Did any of you know Julia Haart?

ally

Fri, Jul 16 2021, 11:52 am

thanks wrote:

Those of us that know her and grew up in her circles know that she is lying. Many of us have great careers, and are not viewed as baby makers. We are respected by our husband's, families and the community. I personally have a successful career and worked for NYPD, as well as other major US corporations. She is not coming from an insular society where women do not have these opportunities. Women in her circles are also very fashionably dressed and do not view clothing as body coverings the way she describes. They know more about fashion than the average bergdoff Goodman shopper.
She may not have liked being religious, but that does not excuse the way she portrays it.

I went to an academic school and have a successful career in a not traditional discipline. I am an outlier. Most of my classmates are SAHMs or work in fields such as teaching/ interior decor etc. (I am late 30s for reference). It is disingenuous to pretend that women growing up in frum society have the same opportunities as in secular society. Even with the education, social conditioning, expectations and values, as well as practical considerations that come from getting married and having children young affect career choices. This is just reality.
You can say that the tradeoff is worth it but then you have to be confident in your choices and life path.

ally

Fri, Jul 16 2021, 11:54 am

amother [ Lightgreen ] wrote:

Sometimes the path to being better people involves processing a hurt. It's not always all la la la. And Talia has hurt some of us. We have a need to express and process this wrong.

No one would be hurting her as a fellow Jew just for going far off the path. It's the fact that she's turned around to hurt us that causes so much pain, and has us up in arms defending ourselves.

Again not true. OTD are not accepted in frum society with open arms and an acknowledgement of their life choices.

fmt4

Fri, Jul 16 2021, 12:10 pm

thanks wrote:

The search engines will also find the outrage and the opposition to her. She is out there, and we cannot remain silent.

Here are two great responses:

Reporter Sandy Eller
https://vinnews.com/2021/07/15.....odox/

Entrepreneur Michla Berlin
https://vinnews.com/2021/07/15.....tter/

Sorry, but these letters would probably make Julia/Talia laugh. I know they made me laugh. You saw her dance in a bais Yakov play so you know all about her ? So silly and so melodramatic.

amother

Honeysuckle

Fri, Jul 16 2021, 12:12 pm

fmt4 wrote:

Sorry, but these letters would probably make Julia/Talia laugh. I know they made me laugh. You saw her dance in a bais Yakov play so you know how she was feeling on the inside? So silly and so melodramatic.

That’s what I’ve been saying! How patronizing. I think they’re stupid and I’m a typical Lakewood woman.

amother

Trillium

Fri, Jul 16 2021, 12:35 pm

fmt4 wrote:

Sorry, but these letters would probably make Julia/Talia laugh. I know they made me laugh. You saw her dance in a bais Yakov play so you know all about her ? So silly and so melodramatic.

Not silly at all.
They voiced their opinion in the name of thousands who feel different then what she said.
Others who think of it as true just see that successful graduates who attended school with her say that she's lying

amother

Aconite

Fri, Jul 16 2021, 1:32 pm

amother [ Chicory ] wrote:

no one has been trashed.

disagreeing with fundamentalist approach to religious observance is not trashing people.

you may not agree with it, and you may not like that opinion.

It's not a personal attack.

she didn’t just “disagree with a fundamentalist approach to religious observance” she trashed it on TV. That’s different than disagreeing. I honestly would love to know why you are tripping over yourself trying to defend her. Are you just so enlightened and hate right wing / jpf orthodoxy yourself? Some of her defenders are coming across that way.

amother

Chicory

Fri, Jul 16 2021, 2:07 pm

amother [ Aconite ] wrote:

I see a fellow jew and I think it's a cop out to just fling mud.

The truth is not her "reality" show.

And I think someone in the frum world who has kids and gets divorced and/or leaves frumkeit does so for some really big reason(s). It's not for no reason or trite reasons, and I can see how someone gets to that point and have seen from those whom I do personally know.

I think this family and others struggling with frumkeit will be more harmed and distanced from Torah for longer with these types of attacks, and focusing on compassion to understand and try to build bridges or at least keep it classy (even if she doesn't) is the Torah way.

I think to assume those who aren't full on "hating" on her must be "hating" on frumkeit is short sighted and wrong.

Still, her being strong toned about disagreeing with fundamentalism isn't pointed at people, it's discussing fundamentalism and where she thinks the philosophies break down.

I'm not threatened by it because tbh I think some of her points are worth thinking about. I can see how there are some issues associated with this or that. I'm secure in my person and frumkeit that I don't feel attacked by her nor feel the need to attack her. Maybe that's why I don't view this as 'bashing' or 'trashing'.

number

Fri, Jul 16 2021, 2:28 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

Did you get that psak din about this person and this situation specifically?

The halachos are not that straight forward as I've been taught, particularly in this era.

There really needs to be someone well versed in these halachos (not just those re: shmiras haloshon, but also ahavas yisroel, etc.)

Also, context is relevant and consequences are relevant. I've been taught that it is not that easy or common to be able to get around rechilus, LH, or motzi shem ra that the cursory reading of halachah may imply and really one must err on the side of restraint barring getting clear daas torah.

That’s not what I was taught, and I’m following what I was taught by people I trust. If you were taught otherwise then it’s likely best that you don’t engage on the thread.

NotInNJMommy

Fri, Jul 16 2021, 2:30 pm

number wrote:

That’s not what I was taught, and I’m following what I was taught by people I trust. If you were taught otherwise then it’s likely best that you don’t engage on the thread.

lol Duly noted.

Ok, so there was no specific psak given to you that this is muttar.

And the suggested way to deal with it is if someone doesn't like what you're doing that they should leave and stop talking about it.

So, if I think you're behaving contrary to torah openly, am I allowed to not consider you among my people and attack you? Am I allowed to draw that conclusion on my own??

kenz

Fri, Jul 16 2021, 2:42 pm

amother [ Aconite ] wrote:

a formerly frum person trashing us on TV is a tragedy in my books. None of this outrage, NONE is about her changing her lifestyle. Whoever keeps bringing that up- you’re gaslighting, no one is focusing on that. It’s all about the tv show and some of you are trying to be so accepting and openminded your brains fell out.

Even without the tv show, a frum person giving it all up to live a secular lifestyle is indeed a tragedy. It may not affect others but it is still certainly a tragedy for them, and if people on this site disagree, it makes you wonder about their level of frumkeit too. How could a person who truly believes in Hashem and the Torah way of life (as all members of this site should as per rules of inclusion) NOT feel that throwing it all away is a tragedy???

number

Fri, Jul 16 2021, 2:44 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

If I create a reality tv show to celebrate my going against Halacha then yes.

NotInNJMommy

Fri, Jul 16 2021, 2:51 pm

number wrote:

If I create a reality tv show to celebrate my going against Halacha then yes.

Wow, you know an awful lot about her intentions. I would never assume I know someone's intentions.

You're not really answering hte question though---so you or I get to personally decide how and when and who is "amitecha" and who is not without a psak from someone with any training or authority? That's what you've just described.

That is very dangerous, and already done in very disgusting ways that have justified physical attacks and worse on other jews.

I think to make that jump without a rav involved in this day and age where things are very complicated is very risky.

number

Fri, Jul 16 2021, 3:01 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

I’m sorry you don’t like the way I make decisions, I gather you’re one of those people that asks the rav about every little decision and kol hakavod to you. That’s not how I do things and mine is a valid choice too.

As for my assuming what her intentions are they seem self explanatory but maybe you can enlighten me on an alternative explanation.

NotInNJMommy

Fri, Jul 16 2021, 3:07 pm

number wrote:

You are assuming a lot about me too. We have to judge others DLKZ. We aren't entitled to know the intentions at all, and must assume things DLKZ.

If I'm wrong and I committed LH and motzi shem ra against a jew and hurt that jew and/or their family... and encouraged others to do so as well.....well, that's not something I'm willing to risk happening.

There are plenty of ways to fight for truth without attacking someone else, certainly a fellow jew.

And just because something is even muttar or legal doesn't make it a good idea either.

number

Fri, Jul 16 2021, 3:18 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

So that’s your choice to make. Not one you should be forcing on me. I think at some point we just need to agree to disagree, and this is it. Be well.

thanks

Fri, Jul 16 2021, 3:32 pm

ally wrote:

I do agree that most BY graduates choose certain career paths to give them a work/life balance, and for other reasons you mentioned. However, Julia bashed her education, and since bym is my Alma Matta, I can testify that most graduates scored higher on their regents and SATs than an average public school graduate.
There are social norms, but a woman who chooses something else, can deffinately do so. (to the exclusion of lingerie design, or other Hollywood style choices. But many secular jews and non-jews would frown upon those as well).

amother

Azure

Fri, Jul 16 2021, 3:56 pm

sequoia wrote:

A person changing their lifestyle is not a tragedy.

Seriously?? A frum person marrying out is one of the biggest tragedies there is.

I dont know about anybody else, but just thinking about a middle aged woman leaving it all behind and trying to bring her family with her, brought tears to my eyes.

How can you not call this a tragedy?