S/O - Modern vs Modern Orthodox, let's break it down (again)

Fox

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 2:02 am

chanchy123 wrote:

You don’t get a certificate of being MO open orthodox or Conservative. It doesn’t matter to us what they are - these are labels people are free to give themselves as they wish.
Just like you can still call yourself chassidish but dress in a bikini when in vacation - because it’s a matter of community identity - even if your behavior is not condoned by chassidish hashkafa. You can still be MO and eat dairy out - because it’s a matter of community identity.
However no one who drives on Shabbat would identify as MO or Open Orthodox for the matter.
There is no real world application for being eligible for a label - we just don’t care.

I worked for a MO yeshiva for a decade (1990-2000), and I saw very little difference between the actual observance of those who were truly committed to Torah U'madda and/or Torah im Derech Eretz and the yeshivishe world.

Certainly none of them espoused the approach you're suggesting. They were very bothered by deliberate behavior that was contrary to halacha. For example, they were every bit as concerned about tznius as anyone in a RW community. They might hold that women could show a tefach of hair in accordance with their interpretation of halacha and they didn't ostracize women who didn't cover their hair, but they considered completely uncovered hair to be a violation of both halacha and community norms. Their tolerance was for women who had grown up in a different generation and for women who were presumably still growing in their observance.

Or to use a less triggering example, many of my colleagues watched television, but they were extremely careful about what they watched. I remember many informal discussions about whether one program or another was permissible. They were much more careful than many a RW couple watching TV while on vacation.

They were also significantly pained by the fact that MO shul rabbonim had so little influence over their congregations' norms. While they lamented the general move to the right that was obvious even in the 90s, they faulted their own rabbonim for allowing an "almost anything goes" mentality among their congregants.
_______________________________

Anyone who has had the experience of interacting with learned people who are committed to Torah U'Madda or Torah im Derech Eretz realizes that the differences in daily observance aren't significantly different from those of many RW groups. I have as much respect for genuine adherents to those philosophies as any RW group.

But the idea that tznius isn't "an issue" or that anything goes up to the line of being mechal Shabbos? Well, that's not an accurate representation of Torah U'Madda or Torah im Derech Eretz. You can't claim that you simply follow different interpretations of halacha while simultaneously claiming that Modern Orthodoxy ignores those halachos.

Which goes back to the point of my previous post. Labels aside, a great many people call themselves "Modern Orthodox" despite rejecting the actual hashkafos of Torah U'Madda or Torah im Derech Eretz.

chanchy123

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 2:07 am

Fox wrote:

How has does this have anything to do with what I wrote. I know that MO are very diligent about halacha and care about halachic observance. I am in fact MO and I care about halacha and halachic observance. All I'm saying is that anyone who wants to identify as MO is welcome to do so - even if they are not fully halachic observant.

Fox

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 2:28 am

chanchy123 wrote:

That's fine, but it sets up a problem: if anyone can identify as MO regardless of observance level or commitment to Torah U'Madda/Torah im Derech Eretz, then it's not unreasonable for other observant Jews to be somewhat guarded when faced with a MO Jew.

For example, if my MO neighbor invites me for a meal, how do I know if she's genuinely observant of halacha or just likes to identify as MO? If I ask questions, I'll insult her, but the norms of her community give me no real clues about her kashrus.

As I said originally, the best thing about Modern Orthodoxy is its inclusiveness, and the worst thing about Modern Orthodoxy is its inclusiveness.

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 2:37 am

Fox wrote:

This.

You want to know why I have to ask someone MO before eating a shabbos meal at their house? This is why.

And then I get called uneducated and rude for assuming MO people don't keep halacha.

I have friends who are dati leumi and who I know the standards they keep. Those I trust. People I don't know....that's another story.

I will add amongst chareidim it gives an impression that MO people do not keep halacha, and do not care about halacha, to the point that if someone MO does in fact keep halacha to the points some of you here say you do, we'd call them RW dati leumi chazak, and then continue to explain we're talking about the ones who are makpid on halacha. (This is when I am talking with other chareidi people I know)

Last edited by LovesHashem on Thu, Oct 14 2021, 2:40 am; edited 1 time in total

chanchy123

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 2:38 am

Fox wrote:

I think if you know a person you can tell if they’re committed to Halacha or not.
According to Halacha it is permissible to eat at a person’s house as long as they are shomer Shabbat and anyone who identifies as MO is shomer Shabbat.

essie14

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 2:48 am

chanchy123 wrote:

I didn’t say that they strive for more (in any of the examples) but that they belong to a community that strives for more.
I think we’re back to the MO language vs yeshivish language here.
I don’t need a line where one is not allowed to attend my shul. Anyone who is Jewish can take part and anyone who is Jewish can send their kids to my school - they don’t need to subscribe to any sort of orthodoxy to do so - I don’t care.
I’ve seen countless threads here along the lines of “I look 100% but it’s all fake…” are these women not yeshivish or not Orthodox?
To me orthodoxy is about practice and not about faith - in almost all cases. And I actually have known people who are agnostic but keep Halacha because they value the way of life.
Mechalel Shabbat befarhesya is a halachic term - and carries certain weight (they cannot be considered a faithful witness for instance) and no one who does it would consider themselves Orthodox of any brand.
You don’t get a certificate of being MO open orthodox or Conservative. It doesn’t matter to us what they are - these are labels people are free to give themselves as they wish.
Just like you can still call yourself chassidish but dress in a bikini when in vacation - because it’s a matter of community identity - even if your behavior is not condoned by chassidish hashkafa. You can still be MO and eat dairy out - because it’s a matter of community identity.
However no one who drives on Shabbat would identify as MO or Open Orthodox for the matter.
There is no real world application for being eligible for a label - we just don’t care.

Perfectly said.

essie14

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 2:51 am

LovesHashem wrote:

How can you assume anything about any of your neighbors whom you don't know well?
You trust someone's kashrut just because she dresses chassidish?
Because someone sends their kids to yeshivish schools?
Why do only MO neighbors get judged?
Because you know a few MO people who are lax with halacha?

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 2:57 am

essie14 wrote:

We eat pretty much everything except rabbanut when it comes to products in the house.

I highly doubt even if someone chareidi/chassidish WAS eating rabbanut they'd tell me about it if I asked. None of the rabbanim in our community hold to it, and I assume if they belong to that community, they follow their standards.

Most people in my community are more strict than we are. I do generally discuss kashrus when we have guests, I'll ask them if they eat certain heschers not everyone eats.

I think there's more of a trust because within our communities there's much less deviation of what's okay and what's not. More or less, we all eat the same things.

In your community there's a HUGE range of what's eaten.

essie14

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:01 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Ok, so there are certain hechsherim that you will bring into your house. But if I was your neighbor, why would you assume that I'm "not careful with kashrut ", as you wrote.
To me, that means you think I use the same sponge for all my dishes, or something like that. Eating rabbanut food doesn't make me not careful with kashrut.

A neighbor asked to borrow some vegetables last week. He asked what is the shmittah status. When I told him, he said "my guests won't eat that , thanks anyway"
So his guests told him their kashrut requirements and he abided by it.

chanchy123

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:03 am

LovesHashem wrote:

A. According to halacha, as I have learned it, when you are a guest at someone's home you can eat what you are served even if you would not use this hechsher or leniency yourself. If you are close enough to your MO neighbors or family members you can discuss which hechesherim you use and ask them to use them - in fact, many times if a MO person is hosting a chareidi person they might ask ahead of hosting.
B. I think it safe to assume that anyone who is MO will eat rabbanut - some RWMO will choose to eat certain foods with mehadrin hechsherim (again usually rabbanut mehadrin) usually meat and/or dairy.

chanchy123

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:06 am

essie14 wrote:

Yes, I believe that eating Rabbunt is NOT a leniency, I think it is important to support the universal kashrut that allows all Jews in Israel to eat kosher food. I do eat Mehadrin (halak) meat, and DH likes buying Mehadrin chicken when possible - but as a guest I will eat whatever my hosts serve me without asking the status of the meat or giving instructions ahead of time.

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:12 am

essie14 wrote:

No it's mainly the hescherim that's the issue. I don't think I used the term "careful about kashrus" and if I did I didn't realize it was going to sound like I don't think MO people keep kashrus at all.

If someone MO doesn't keep halacha is most or many areas than I wouldn't trust their kitchen at all.

If someone does clearly value halacha, now we are talking. Like I said, I will ask - but people may find it offensive that I'm asking.

I was in a course with someone dati leumi and at the end there was a gathering with food. She made lots of things, but I really didn't know what to do, I really didn't want her to take offense that I was asking what's in her food.

In the end, I think (this was a few years ago) I called my Rav, and he said bidieved I could eat, since it was all milchig and produce, and since she was pressuring me a lot, and it would of made a chilul hashem if I said no.

Like I said, I am friends with dati leumi people and we eat at their houses, because I know what's in their kitchens.

I'm just explaining that were expected to understand you take in anyone into your communities, even people who openly disregard halacha. And then you don't understand why we are wary of relying on those kinds of people for certain things.

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:15 am

chanchy123 wrote:

I don't think rabbanut is necessarily evil or bad, but our rabbanim tell us to not eat it. I don't think you are not keeping halacha, or eating treif. But I personally don't eat it.

Fox

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:25 am

essie14 wrote:

Why do only MO neighbors get judged?

Because people who claim to be MO repeatedly tell us that (a) they don't necessarily adhere to the strictures of Modern Orthodoxy's founding movements; (b) while being openly mechallel Shabbos is unacceptable, MO individuals may or may not observe other halachos; and (c) virtually anyone is allowed to claim to be MO.

I wouldn't call it "judging" as much as "suspicion."

None of us is 100 percent faithful to halacha. We sin out of ignorance, laziness, and forgetfulness. But halacha makes a distinction between these kinds of sins and the person who repeatedly and flagrantly ignores halachos.

Here's an example: I buy a lot of stuff from Amazon. It gets delivered, I unwrap it, and I frequently forget to toivel things that require it. Now, there are some minor leniencies regarding an item that is needed for immediate use that will be toiveled shortly thereafter. That said, I've goofed quite a few times in my observance of this halacha.

But that's a lot different from someone saying, "Toiveling isn't such a big deal in my community."

It's also different than someone who says, "Our rabbonim say that the item has to be toiveled within two weeks."

The former is brazenly ignoring a halacha that is no different for Modern Orthodox individuals than it is for Yeshivish or Chassidish people. The latter is an interpretation of halacha. It might be possible to disagree with the conclusion, but the halacha is not being ignored.

If I know someone is careful about halachos, even though her mesorah is different than mine, I have zero problems. But if someone has told me repeatedly that her community doesn't care about halacha X, Y, or Z . . . then, yes, I'll be concerned that she might be one of those people who simply chooses to identify as a Modern Orthodox Jew without much commitment to observance.

chanchy123

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:26 am

LovesHashem wrote:

I don't think rabbanut is necessarily evil or bad, but our rabbanim tell us to not eat it. I don't think you are not keeping halacha, or eating treif. But I personally don't eat it.

Yes, I totally understand (although I do not agree), what I’m saying is that according to my rabbanim (read halachic sources I follow) if the person is shomer is shomer Shabbat it is perfectly permissible to eat in their house.
You sound like a great open down to earth person and I’d love to be friends in real life - but I think this is where the gap between being MO and chareidi lies.
I had a similar issue with sharing food at work - my traditional coworkers who “keep a kosher home” Keith trying to get me to eat their food. I had to keep telling them that it’s not personal and I don’t doubt their kashrut (although I did) but according to my rav I’ll only eat food cooked in a shomer Shabbat kitchen. It didn’t help that other MO coworkers would eat their food or that one woman would tell me how her ILs who are dati ate at her house (but her FIL would ask her to turn on the AC on Shabbat 🤦‍♀️).

chanchy123

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:33 am

Fox wrote:

Hopefully, this will be my last post on this sub-debate:
Again we're speaking different languages - we just don't seek to investigate others' levels of observance and it bears no importance how observant others are, once they've passed the threshold of keeping Shabbat.
so you keep saying but how do I know if a MO person is the kind that is 100% committed to halacha or only 80% committed to halacha - and my answer is it doesn't matter (and in parentheses you can usually tell when you get to know someone - but again it doesn't matter).

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 3:49 am

chanchy123 wrote:

Yes I get this too. The woman I was speaking of was pressuring me saying that she is dati, what I don't rely on her? She was someone I learned from through out the course was makpid on tzniyus, and shabbos, and halacha clearly. And when I called my Rav, he DID ask me those questions. How observant did she seem?

And I'm sure based on that that did make him more lenient.

Halacha may say you can eat in someone's home if they are shomer shabbos. I'm not sure, I've never learned that - either way it seems my community either holds of a different opinion, or other halachos and ideas cause them to pasken more machmir in this area.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 7:27 am

LovesHashem wrote:

What if people aren’t striving for more? Are they not MO?

What about people who say they don’t currently believe in the Oral Torah? Or people who have different beliefs like saying:

I don’t really believe in tchiyas hameisim, or that our souls continue on.

I understand that rabbanim made halachos 1000 years ago about stuff, but times has changed. Lots of it’s irrelevant, like tzniyis and other things. I don’t believe G-d wants me to these things.

People who believe their Rebbe is G-d

If anyone and everyone is accepted into shul and into the community, how do you differentiate who is MO and who is Open Orthodox or Conservative?

What’s the lines? Is it just shabbos?

What if someone says they don’t believe Hashem still exists but they think shabbos is a nice concept and love the songs in shul and community. So they keep shabbos, go to shul, and their kids wear more modest clothing since they are more conservative leaning people, but not because they believe in Hashem.

When it comes to yeshivish and chassidish there’s clear lines that once you do xyz you aren’t part of the community. And there are so many of them.

So my questions is where and what are those lines? Do they exist?

Wait, what? People who are not striving are just that, ut they can be from ANY community. MO does not equal not striving.
And I mentioned on this thread already, MO diesnt have so many lines, its more of one long continuum.
Thats a major difference between MO and the charedi world.