S/O - Modern vs Modern Orthodox, let's break it down (again)

GreenEyes26

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 8:02 am

This conversation is going in circles. People keep insisting on trying to fit MO into a yeshivish- style structure. The whole thing is different. The whole foundation is different. It’s like you keep picking up an orange and saying “But why does your Rav let this Apple be orange?”

I don’t know what else I can really say. Not only that, yeshivish and charedi posters will never consider us “really frum Jews” and you know what, at this point I don’t care. I live in a community where I feel comfortable and can be my genuine self. That’s good enough for me.

I’m a Jew and I practice the way that makes me happy and fulfilled. I keep the Big 3 (which incidentally, includes neither tzniut nor kashrut, 2 things that have been fetishized by RW communities). That’s enough to be labeled Orthodox to me.

GreenEyes26

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 8:06 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

But this is really teue in all and every derech in frum judaism. Some people talk the talk but dont walk the walk. There are people in all communities who say they align with that community, but not really. This isNt just MO.

Seriously. I have never seen so much hypocrisy as I did in the RW world. As we REPEATEDLY see on this site and in the real world, outside “levush” is meaningless. People present a front and then do whatever they hell they want at home in secret, or on a vacation. At least in the MO community there’s no need for subterfuge. I might not wear a bikini at all, but I can respect someone who does and doesn’t try to be something she’s not “for shidduchim”.

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 8:11 am

I just don't understand how people can openly flaunt they don't care about certain halachos, or don't believe in huge parts of our mesorah like the world to come - and you consider that Orthodox?

Or you claim that we're fetishizing the fact that tzniyus and kashrus are mitzvos that we are commanded to do? Of course we put an emphasis on them. We put an emphasis on keeping ALL mitzvos. Tzniyus and Kashrus did become really talked about, but shatnez, shmiras halashon, and any other mitzvah is just as important and should be emphasized.

No I cannot just sit and say anyone can flaunt they don't keep certain mitzvot, don't CARE about certain mitzvot, and they call themselves Orthodox.

To be Orthodox you must believe in Hashem, you must care about our mesorah! You must keep the Torah! If you currently don't do these things you should definitely be striving for them and recognize that you NEED to be doing these things.

I think to be Orthodox you should be:

1. Keeping the big 3
2. Belive in the 13 ani maamins
3. Have a Rabbi or halachic guide
4. Strive to keep all the halachos in the Torah (this includes kashrus, tzniyus, and literally EVERYTHING)

In the imamother rules it say:

2. All posts must conform to the Torah. Imamother caters to Jewish Orthodox women, adheres to the strict guidelines of our Torah, and continues to be molded upon the feedback of orthodox women. Posts that contradict the teachings of our Torah, or even interpretations of the Torah that do not follow our strict laws, are forbidden. We require posts to be predicated upon the belief in the 13 Principles of Faith as outlined here.

So you are implying imamother cares more about halacha and Torah than the MO movement/hashkafah?

mommy3b2c

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 8:11 am

GreenEyes26 wrote:

Isnt the big 3 Shabbos , kosher, and Taharas hamishpacha ?

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 8:16 am

GreenEyes26 wrote:

There hypocrisy everywhere. This thread isn't about people, because humans will always be humans and have flaws - it's about ideas.

I know there's people faking being yeshivish. But no one I knows pretends that you can be chareidi and go to a open beach in a bikini. Every single person I know would say that person is not keeping halacha properly, and following the Torah properly.

If someone publicly came out and said "I'm chareidi - but I eat rabbanut, and go to Tel Aviv in pants, and go to bars and hang out with men, and I actually don't believe parts of the Torah are true, it's made up" - this person would not be considered part of the chareidi community anymore.

But if someone dati leumi came out and said the same things they'd still be part of the community, considered MO, trusted for kashrus (since they keep shabbos) etc.

Do you see that difference?

Behind closed doors many people in all walks of life struggle. Christians, Muslims, Jews of all stripes and colors.

But no one walks around saying they flaunt halacha, don't care about certain things, and still believe they are a chareidi Jew. Most people at that point wouldn't identify with the community and the community wouldn't identify with them.

BadTichelDay

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 8:32 am

LovesHashem wrote:

[...] Or you claim that we're fetishizing the fact that tzniyus and kashrus are mitzvos that we are commanded to do? Of course we put an emphasis on them. We put an emphasis on keeping ALL mitzvos. Tzniyus and Kashrus did become really talked about, but shatnez, shmiras halashon, and any other mitzvah is just as important and should be emphasized.

[...] To be Orthodox you must believe in Hashem, you must care about our mesorah! You must keep the Torah! If you currently don't do these things you should definitely be striving for them and recognize that you NEED to be doing these things.

I think to be Orthodox you should be:

1. Keeping the big 3
2. Belive in the 13 ani maamins
3. Have a Rabbi or halachic guide
4. Strive to keep all the halachos in the Torah (this includes kashrus, tzniyus, and literally EVERYTHING)
[...]So you are implying imamother cares more about halacha and Torah than the MO movement/hashkafah?

I can't speak for GeenEyes 26, but I'd hazard a guess/hope that with "fetishizing kashrut and tzniut" she's aiming at stringencies and chumrot rather than the mitzvot themselves.

Believing in Hashem, the 13 principles and keeping Torah ARE core parts of MO. Someone who does not, is not MO. Keeping Torah may mean minus all chumrot and with reliance on leniencies WITHIN halacha. MO does differentiate between mitzvot, minhagim and chumrot. Not keeping the latter does not equal not keeping Torah. MO HAVE rabbanim whom they follow.
Dress code/tzniyut may be interpreted differently and that does not mean that people who follow a different interpretation "keep nothing" or flaunt halacha.

The last sentence regarding imamother is of course nonsense.

GreenEyes26

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 8:38 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Thank you for posting this, because this is actually an excellent example of how RW posters (not you specifically) cannot understand the MO way of life.

Your example below:

Quote:

If someone publicly came out and said "I'm chareidi - but I eat rabbanut, and go to Tel Aviv in pants, and go to bars and hang out with men, and I actually don't believe parts of the Torah are true, it's made up" - this person would not be considered part of the chareidi community anymore.

But if someone dati leumi came out and said the same things they'd still be part of the community, considered MO, trusted for kashrus (since they keep shabbos) etc.

To an MO person, this does not matter. I will repeat: THIS DOES NOT MATTER. And it does not affect my trust of their kashrut, because why should it??? I eat Rabbanut. I wear pants. I go to bars and have guy friends. I think some parts of the Torah - or at least the Gemarah/Mishna/etc - are possibly not divinely written. As my old BY teachers used to say, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

But to a Chareidi person, these are unforgiveable sins, so we are starting from the point of "doing something bad". Which means you are a bad person. Which means you can't be trusted. Which means I can't eat in your home.

Two totally, totally different starting points. We are coming from such different countries I don't know if I'll ever be able to teach you the language.

essie14

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 8:40 am

GreenEyes26 wrote:

Agree!
I don't wear pants, but I wear short sleeves and I leave hair showing out of my headcovering. To some chareidi people this is just unforgiveable and I cannot be trusted on kashrut.

BadTichelDay

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 8:43 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Where do you get it from that not believing in parts of the Torah represents MO or DL?? That's just not true! DL and MO doctrine is to believe in the entire Torah!

Wearing pants is subject to the interpretation of rabbanim regarding tzniut. It is not d'Oraita. Personally, I wear only skirts but some rabbanim permit (female style, not men's) trousers. There's no Torah violation in those who follow that psak.

Food with the rabbanut hechsher is kosher. It is not treif! It does not deny any part of the Torah. People who eat rabbanut, eat kosher food with a hechsher, even if some other people don't use that hechsher.

Which MO or DL woman have you come accross that "hangs out in bars with men"? I haven't.

Edited to add, after GreenEyes26 latest comment, so she goes to bars personally, but that doesn't it make MO doctrine and the people I know don't do it.
The Oral Torah is from Sinai, of course, just as the written one, but at the same time the Gemara contains lengthy debates between humans, yes, Chazal were human, and with differing opinions between them.

Last edited by BadTichelDay on Thu, Oct 14 2021, 8:49 am; edited 1 time in total

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 8:44 am

chanchy123 wrote:

I understand, but that’s not the way Halacha works - in Halacha there is a rule that one witness is trustworthy for issurim. So you don’t need a mashgiach for your cooking to be kosher if you are trustworthy on your own. In Halacha - the yardstick of being a trustworthy witnesses is being shomer Shabbat (and it makes sense to me as well, you are less likely to fudge at kashrut if you show you value Halacha by keeping Shabbat).
So as a rule of thumb there is no reason not to eat at someone’s house if they are shomer Shabbat, but it’s a problem if they are not.
In certain cases - like with close family - there are leniencies and this is a great example of a question a MO person would ask their rabbi (and not if they should maintain a relationship with said relative who does not keep Shabbat - but how to eat in their kitchen without offending them).

And the poster's grandmother may well have grown up with very solid knowledgeable examples of kosher kitchen.

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 8:48 am

Fox wrote:

They were also significantly pained by the fact that MO shul rabbonim had so little influence over their congregations' norms. While they lamented the general move to the right that was obvious even in the 90s, they faulted their own rabbonim for allowing an "almost anything goes" mentality among their congregants.
.

Yes, I'm getting the impression of a shul rav as being someone who officiates at lifecycle events and speaks on Shabbos. I'm sure this is simplistic and not accurate.

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 8:49 am

chanchy123 wrote:

How has does this have anything to do with what I wrote. I know that MO are very diligent about halacha and care about halachic observance. I am in fact MO and I care about halacha and halachic observance. All I'm saying is that anyone who wants to identify as MO is welcome to do so - even if they are not fully halachic observant.

And I'm yeshivish and I'm happy to see everyone in shul and halachic Jewish children in school, even my kids' schools though that's not happening like it did when I was growing up.

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 8:53 am

essie14 wrote:

How can you assume anything about any of your neighbors whom you don't know well?
You trust someone's kashrut just because she dresses chassidish?
Because someone sends their kids to yeshivish schools?
Why do only MO neighbors get judged?
Because you know a few MO people who are lax with halacha?

Is this reasonable? Plonis doesn't cover her hair and sends a dish with cauliflower and broccoli. Can I suspect it's not Bodek? Not everyone would say, oh, she's yeshivish so even if I don't use those products I better for her. I can't make assumptions the way I would with other people. (And I'd feel more hesitant to ask her directly.)

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 8:56 am

GreenEyes26 wrote:

That's not true.
I'm a Jew and the way I practice also makes me happy and fulfilled. (But "does it make me happy and fulfilled" can't be the barometer of my practice. Sometimes we have off days when we're not happy and fulfilled.)

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 9:07 am

BadTichelDay wrote:

Multiple MO people have said over the past few pages - as long as you keep shabbos you are MO, it doesn't matter if you don't believe in parts of the Torah or think Hashem is around or not.

They said people who openly say that their community doesn't care about certain areas of halacha, is fine.

Please read the past few pages, specifically Fox's posts.

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 9:10 am

GreenEyes26 wrote:

So yes this is a completely different starting point.

If you don't believe in the 13 ani maamim's according to imamother you aren't Orthodox. And to most people in my community, you aren't considered orthodox either.

It's not about the bars and pants, I have dati leumi friends who do that too. I shouldn't have put such an emphasis on those items.

Not believing in parts of the Torah, or Oral Torah, or the Ani Maamin's is a really big deal.

So what makes MO different than Open Orthodoxy and Conservatives? Just shabbos then?

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 9:13 am

BadTichelDay wrote:

Again, please read the last few pages. This is an open conversation that's been going on for a few pages to understand the difference between MO and other movements, and what the lines are between them.

I am really trying to understand, and I am not judging anyone in this thread. I posted before, I have DL friends, I think rabbanut is definitely kosher, and I respect rabbanim who say loose pants are muttar for women to wear. It's not what I do, but I do understand there's halachic validity to those viewpoints.