my kid is a TERROR

mumsy23

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 6:42 am

Quote:

OP here,

Ok my ds does not have ODD, I think that maybe you misunderstood my post. He is an extremely hard kid, but he is not always like this, not all day. He can be very good if he wants to be. Today for example, he was off from school already for pesach vacation, and I thought it would be a disaster to be home with him all day, but he actually behaved well. I was shocked.
But very often he does not listen to a word I say. He just does whatever he wants. He thinks he's the boss of everyone. Most of the time I have to threaten him in order to get him to listen. LIke I will not read you a book before bed if you dont brush your teeth. I dont like threatening him all the time,

I really didn't want to post here because of the fact that I know 90% you probably won't listen to me but I was thinking about your situation and at the risk of falling on deaf ears, I'm going to say my piece. Let me just put it out there that you tried what you thought was right and you tried being the parent that "lives and lets live" and it hasn't worked- now you should be telling yourself, "It is time to try something DRASTICALLY different - my style has not worked".
First of all, there is NO SUCH THING as a child who can not be disciplined and taught to be well-mannered, well-behaved and all around appropriate. I worked with the MOST awful behaved children who had a whole slew of problems stemming from autism and PDD and if those children can be taught to behave themselves, than surely, any child can. It is only natural and it is called "Behaviorism" a theory that has long been proven using animals and people and if done properly, will work 100% of the time. Firstly you need to learn the basic principles of behaviorism and begin to apply them to your parenting method. You say you 'threaten' a lot, but threats are not going to get your child to do anything unless he knows that you are going to follow through on them. If you say "moshe, put that down or you are getting a time out" and he doesn't put it down, you don't say "Moshe, you're going to time out, Moshe put it down, Moshe, I told you to put it down" NO- you get up and put in time out. CONSISTENCY is the most important thing and if you aren't consistent with your demands and your consequences, a child will never learn what is expected of him.

Quote:

but I don't really know how else to get him to do s/t. He throws tantrums multiple times a day, he says bad words which I really hate. If he gets upset because I'm not giving him s/t he starts to scream and says mommy your stupid. He just does not care to listen to me.
Yes. I do have a baby at home. He actually loves him, he always wants him to come along wherever he's going. But maybe deep down he feels the loss of attention and is acting out. And if so, what can I do about it? I give him most of the attention as it is. The baby get much less attention than him. Very often the baby is playing on the floor by himself for awhile and I will play with the older one.
I just don't know what to do to get him to listen without everything being a battle. A sticker chart does nothing for him. He doesnt care about the stupid sticker. I get dpressed when days go by and its just punishment mode for so long.

It shouldn't be like that, but it is clear that it is because you are lacking in consistency - not just in your method of meting out the consequences, but in the way you present to your child with DH. You and DH need to present a united front and again - you need to be consistent.
This is the basics of how behaviorism works:
Every action has a reaction - Your child does something, you react. Your reaction is going to dictate how your child behaves in the same situation next time. If the action is negative and you do something that reinforces that negative behavior (I.e. giving him attention) he will do that next time again. Same goes for positive actions that the child does. NOW, if the child does something negative and you start giving him loads of attention, but no consequence for him to learn from for the next time, that is MEGA REINFORCING and for sure he is going to do that again. If your child wants something and you say no - (again: action - child asking reaction- you say "no") here you are setting up a situation where the child wants to find out what will get you to say yes. If you say no 3 times and then give in, next time he will not give up before he cries to you 4 times (or screams for however long he knows it takes for you to say yes). the longer you say no and then give in, the longer he will kvetch. BUT if you never give in - after a couple times, he will learn. believe he will.
He is older now, and starting out to be a consistent disciplinarian is hard. You will experience a 'behavior burst' -meaning he will try harder to break your resolve - BUT, if you stick to your guns and are consistent with the way you give consequences - he will settle down. MY BIGGEST SUGGESTION TO YOU: speak to a psychologist about the best method of disciplining your child. Dr. Yael Respler in Brooklyn is an excellent choice and will give you excellent advice. Read up on behaviorism and how it works exactly - if you do it correctly it will work 100% of the time.
One thing to keep in mind - in the behaviorism model, intermittent reinforcement is the STRONGEST. meaning, if you reinforce a behavior sometimes and not others, the child will learn that behavior the best. So because his negative behaviors were sometimes reinforced by you or dh and sometimes not - he learned them strong and hard. You can turn your child around- but you need to work hard at it (CHILD REARING IS A HARD JOB) and you need to get DH on board. If you are really willing to put in the effort - your child can change....
I

Quote:

can't live like that, I want him to be a happy kid, not one who constantly gets thrown in his room or a toy taken away.

Don't be afraid of punishing. There are three models for child/parent relationships - 1) Low discipline, low support (terrible combination - basically child thinks you don't care about them and acts out to get attention) 2) Low discipline, high support (Better, but still - CHILDREN NEED RULES - They need to know EXACTLY what is expected of them. children like routine, structure and a solid sense of what is right and wrong) 3) High discipline, high support - proven to be the most effective form of child rearing. Structure, routine, consequences - HIGH but at the same time, you give a lot of love, support and attention. The child will never hate a parent for being to strict - no matter what, your child will love you. AND, if you turn a new page and take the advice I have given, your child will be happy and eventually the punishing will stop - the child will learn and you will have to do it a lot less often - the key is to do it right and consistently. [/quote]

mumsy23

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 6:47 am

AND just to add - GR's advice was excellent and actually Behaviorism at its best. Action -reaction (didn't hit, got a candy - thats how they did it with animals). But you see, she had to sit with him all day - she had to put in an enormous amount of effort - but it paid off! Good for you GR!

mumsy23

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 7:00 am

And let me just add, that I used these principals with my child since she was born (basically) and I have an extremely well behaved, well adjusted, happy child who I RARELY have to punish. I had moments (at around 2-2.5) when I was doing more punishing, ignoring (tantrums etc..), but now she "gets it" and she's not unhappy, she doesn't think I'm mean and she always tells me how much she loves me!

Tamiri

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 7:17 am

First of all Mumsy, kudos for taking the time out to write all what you did. Obviously very professional.
My next question was going to be how many kids of your own have you brought up and I see the answer is.... not many and not for very long Very Happy

Things which work in school or which look good in books are at times impossible to apply at home.
OP has a specific situation in that she has a difficult relationship with the eldest, and a baby in the mix as well. She may not have the best parenting skills (many first time parents "suffer" from this). Some people get that magic "perfect" child first and credit their amazing parenting abilities. Others don't get the "perfect" child the first time around and have trouble parenting. They may blame themselves, but just as the "perfect" child came that way, so did the "difficult" one. The only difference is how you approach parenting. Kids are born who they are and the question is how you deal with it. You are not going to change them, you will just make adjustments in chinuch.
OPs son, unlike a kid in school, does not go home at the end of the day and thus becomes someone else's problem. He stays. Mom may be dealing with baby issues, work issues, marital issues PLUS the difficult child. It's a much different disciplining environment than what you have where you work. You write "First of all, there is NO SUCH THING as a child who can not be disciplined and taught to be well-mannered, well-behaved and all around appropriate" which is not 100% true. If a difficult child works so hard during the day being appropriate in school, that same child is going to come home and fall apart in honor of his parents.
The best advice you can give a frustrated mom/dad is for both parents to go together to an experienced child behaviorist and learn how to parent.
No one ever said the job will be easy but the end results justify the investment in time, effort and sometimes, pain.

Tefila

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 7:19 am

Ok 1. you are not alone Wink

My three yr old also went through that stage and I played firm, nice and hardball with him. If he did go into his temper tantrum screaming then basically I'd ignore him eighter by walking out of the room or putting him in his room and and shut the door which incidentally he cannot open since I have for safety purposes the door handle higher up this I did untill he calmed down, which sometimes took awhile.
WHen he did, we would talk it idn't matter if I had a meeting or something he is my priority right now I would tell him you are m y tzadikle and yes I understand why you are upset but we listen to our yetzer hatov not yetzer hora and try to talk about it rather then act out by throwing things and not listening.
Hashem is so proud of you when you do good he gives mummy and Tatty extra money to do special things with you like going to the park story time shopping (and learning your Bar Mitzvah Maamer just like your older brothers incidentally he does know half of it off by heart LOL

) . When your chart is all filled up we will go shopping together this talk is mandatory it is me and him only and can take a while but you know what it is working. ANd yes how I truly wish I would have used this technique with my eldest Confused

mumsy23

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 7:48 am

Tamiri wrote:

I agree with you 100% especially the last paragraph. And I agree that there could be a lot going on in the mix that I don't know about. What I was trying to address was the issue of OP feeling like punishing is "mean" and that she doesn't want to be "that kind of parent". I was trying to get her on the 'behaviorism bandwagon' so to speak. BUT OF COURSE she should speak to a professional behaviorist and OBVIOUSLY it won't be easy (I said that many times) and like you said "the end results justify the investment in time, effort and sometimes, pain" (couldn't have said it better myself).

mumsy23

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 7:52 am

Tefila wrote:

Ok 1. you are not alone Wink

Just to point out again, that the first part of this post (ignoring, locking door) is behaviorism.

And I also want to point out that I think OP has heard the second part before and I think that she feels and from what I'm getting from her posts, that her child is beyond sticker charts and saying "that is not how a tzaddik behaves" - sounds like he needs some serious nanny 911 right now (which is also pure behaviorism).

OP - I don't want you to feel like I am bashing you or your parenting style (or your child - it is definitely not HIS fault), I am just trying to be blunt so that you get my message. In the end, of course, its up to you if you take my advice.

mumsy23

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 8:16 am

Tamiri- one more thing about your comment about a child working a certain way in school and then being a terror at home. I just want to tell you, that I worked with these children IN THEIR HOMES and after a couple months of intense behavior modification these children were completely different and not just with us. The parents were amazed at how the children changed and with the whole system. Of course, the parents were on board with it and continued it after hours - but it wasn't an 'in-school' change that didn't generalize into the home - it was dafka in the home that changed.

flowerpower

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 8:24 am

I have a three year old who is known to be a big handful. since the day he was born he was doing trouble and getting into danger. with a lot of hard work we are seeing nice progress. here are tips that helped me

1-use a positive approach. when u see him do something good praise and reward him, give him a hug
2- let him help u with stuff like cooking and setting the table. he will feel worthwhile and make him feel good
3-be exremely consistant. dont give in ever. if u give in once he will take it as a sign to try u again. ds tries me time and time again and I dont give in no matter how hard it is.
4-ignore harmless negetive behaviors. ds says silly things or spits-I ignore it and he stops. if I see its one bad ongoing word I show him a certain spice and he stops
5-keep him occupied bec from bordom comes trouble, let him jump on a trampoline, ride a bike, color....

believe me, u arent the only one, I made 2 photobooks from ds doing trouble from age one and age two for memories later on when hes a shining star. best of luck.

mumsy23

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 8:28 am

sleepless-n-ny wrote:

flowerpower

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 8:41 am

oh and regarding number 3-ds used to tantrum a lot, we called him the" tantrum king". he would tantrum to everything I said no to. he asked, I said no, he had a tantrum and I totaly ignored him. they were like every 5 seconds. I never ever gave in. he would hit me, do stuff, I didnt even look in his direction and did my own thing. with time they started decreasing. by now, they are like 3 times a day, a few months ago it was like 40 a day-no kidding!

happymom

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 9:52 am

Quote:

I just wnat him to be happy.

by raelizing where hes at and accepting him.... that will be alot easier then wishing hed be someone else or feel a feeling he isnt feeling right now. feeling u accept him and love him no matter what (of course positive dicipline is always needed..) can actually help him BECOME happy and feel more confident/.

gryp

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 10:49 am

Wow, mumsy, thanks! I don't know much about what the professionals say (besides basic child psychology), but I needed a system where everyone is happy and everyone compromises on their actions a bit to get to our goal. B"H we are so past that point. But I will never forget what we did because it worked so beautifully and can be adjusted for any behavior.

Motek

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 12:00 pm

I'm all for consistency and structure, but since we are talking about children, not dogs, I'm finding the human component missing here.

Still haven't heard why OP's son is angry. Following through on rules and consequences is vital and the child will be trained, but the rules and consequences have nothing to do with the child's inner world. Is he scared of something? Is he being mistreated at school? Are other children bothering him? What does his teacher have to say about him - does he behave in school or is he a terror there too? Nor have we heard about OP's husband's role.

I'm glad your son is improving 'sleepless', but I find it shocking nonetheless to read that 3 tantrums a day is an improvement, never mind 40 tantrums a day! Here too, I would want to know what is bothering him.

Tefila

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 1:53 pm

Motek may I dare suggest that the Op son sounds like he is an average 3yr old boy who likes independance has trouble through communicating whereras girls it's earlier their communicating skills.
I seriously don't believe there is anything aside from more consistency and patience needed here without the Op losing it.
I have taught other then my own Wink

3 yr olds for a long long time . And boys are very different then girls at this age, well at any age for that matter but with htis issue it is more normal for them now if the child was five or six I would tell Op the same, to look deeper.............................

mumsy23

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 1:57 pm

Motek, without knowing what the current method of discipline is , you can't really assume that the child is "angry" about something. Take any child and don't provide him with a consistent model of action and consequence and you will produce a terror. More often than not, when a child is acting out and flouting authority, the root can be traced back to parents that for one reason or another are not disciplining appropriately (unless of course something major is going on - but OP has NOT indicating that) -

Why doesn't OP respond and let us know what her way of teaching/punishing/disciplining has been (if there has been any).

juko

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 5:16 pm

Okay, The truth is I.m probably not as consistent as I should be. I try to be. but I do think there are times that you CAN give in. For example, no soda before bed. I almost never give in to that, I don't want him to go to bed with the sugar in his mouth. But once in a while I will let him, just because I decide that tonight it will be a special treat. Is that so wrong? Consistency, I agree is so important, but I also feel that rigidity is not good either. As far as carying out my threats, many times I don't. What will happen is, he'll do s/t and I say I am going to do _____, and he still doesn't listen so I say ok I'm doing______, and then he'll say ok sorry mommy I won't do it again. But then 5 minutes later he does it again. He's very generous with the sorrys but he doesn't mean it. He just says it to get out of punishment. BUt what am I supposed to do? Not accept his apology? If this keeps happening over and over then I will punish him.
I am big into praise when he behaves himself. But my dh says that he might feel that I only love him when hes behaving, because the way I deal with him is so different that he might take it to mean that I don't love him or I love him less when he misbehaves.
Me and dh work very hard to have a united front but we have very different approaches to parenting. He is soooo patient and he thinks if hes acting up its only because he's tired or because someone or something is upsetting him. I think while that may be true he still has to be accountable for his actions. He has no problem whatsoever if he has candy every day, or soda before bed, or doesn't brush his teeth. He doesn't care about these small stuff. He's more into whats bothering him, whats on his mind, maybe a candy will make him feel better. So although we try to be in this together and do this as a team, there is no question that my son knows the difference between mommy and daddy. Mommy will give in less often, and daddy will give in more often. So that probably plays a role in his behavior.
Mumsy I actually liked what you said but I think its so hard to implement. I would literally have to put a hold on everything in my life for awhile in order to really work on this. I know I should do it, and it would be good for my ds but I have so much other stuff going on in my life, how do I juggle everything?

anon

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 5:34 pm

juko wrote:

The main point is that if you say no, then no means NO. But you don't always have to say "no". Think carefully before you say no, because once you say it, it's set in stone. Don't let your knee-jerk reaction be "no", because you may regret it.

Here are 2 examples of your son getting a soda before bedtime.

1) DS: Mommy, can I have soda?
You: No, we don't have soda before bedtime.
DS: YES PLEASE, I WANT SODA, YES YES, I WANT SODA!!!
You: OK fine, you can have a treat just tonight.

2) DS: Mommy, can I have soda?
You: Yes. Since it's shabbas, you can have a special shabbas treat just tonight and have a soda.

In both scenarios he got his special treat. But the first way reinforced his screaming temper tantrum, and the second way just taught him that sometimes mommy gives him special treats, especially on shabbas.

Quote:

As far as carying out my threats, many times I don't. What will happen is, he'll do s/t and I say I am going to do _____, and he still doesn't listen so I say ok I'm doing______, and then he'll say ok sorry mommy I won't do it again. But then 5 minutes later he does it again. He's very generous with the sorrys but he doesn't mean it. He just says it to get out of punishment. BUt what am I supposed to do? Not accept his apology? If this keeps happening over and over then I will punish him.

Just because he apologizes, doesn't mean he shouldnt' get punished. First of all, he's clearly manipulating you with his "sorry's". Second of all, you shouldn't feel guilty about "not accepting the apology". You should be more worried about making your words meaningful to him. If he says he's sorry, then you can verbally acknowledge his apology, but explain that he still must be punished. There's no reason why a punishment cannot follow an apology.

By not punishing him, you're teaching him two things: 1) your words and threats are meaningless, and 2) "sorry" is meaningless.

I also like what Mumsy wrote. Hopefully she or others can give you advice on how to implement it.

[/quote]

mumsy23

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 6:40 pm

I agree with Anon 100%. You don't have to be a tyrant - Children are allowed special treats, heck I buy my daughter a special cookie or cupcake every friday when I do my shabbos shopping just because I like to give her something special after we light. And I say "It's shabbos and you behaved very nicely so I want to give you this special treat" there is a HUGE difference between that and "giving the special treat after he screamed and yelled for it". And saying "OKAY, just this once you can have a special treat" does not make it better - the kid isn't hearing "just this once", the kid is hearing "I scream and mommy gives in - screaming is a good tactic!"

And with the apology, what your child is doing is normal - my daughter does it all the time. She says "sorry" and she thinks that will make it better but I just say "I appreciate that you are sorry but I'm sorry, it's too late - next time you will do better" She gets upset, but she gets over it and she doesn't hate me - trust me!!! Sometimes she argues and says "no, no, I'm sorry, I was joking etc..." but I just stick to my guns - I say, "there has to be a punishment and I hope next time you won't do it so I won't have to punish you". YOU MUST NEVER GIVE IN.

THere is a difference between being consistant and rigid - we break rules - sometimes dd will go to be without brushing because we got home late or she'll watch an extra show because she asked nicely but I will NEVER give in to a tantrum or a rude command NO MATTER WHAT.. and my daughter has come to know that about me and she respects it.

You mentioned that this will be a lot for you to take on, but I think you just need to take it one step at a time. First of all, look up a good behavior specialist (like Dr. Yael Respler). Pay for 1 or 2 sessions of discussion with her - It's worth every penny! She'll help you talk your dh around, and she'll give you the tools to change. If you look at the whole picture, you may be overwhelmed, but if you take it one step at a time (the first being to educate yourself about behaviorism and how it works and what your reactions should be) you can do it!

Also, what anon wrote about sorry is so true. If you just give in when he says sorry even though you know he's going to do it again 2 minutes later, what are you teaching him? That sorry is just a silly word and it means NOTHING. You say its too overwhelming? Just start small - tell yourself that next time you say no, you will not give in, no matter what. Next time you say you will punish (and make sure the punishment is appropriate and doable - not, if you don't stop, you will never have a friend over again!) you will follow through even if he apologizes - just say "I know you are sorry, but I said that I will punish you and mommy doesn't lie."

TRY IT!

flowerpower

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 7:25 pm

motek, I know exactly why he is like this, and as a behavior therapist I learnt a lot! I am a very warm person and as I said we work on positive, when hes good I point it out to him and he gets a reward be it a hug or a treat.