Mussar that is actually damaging - share your incident

amother

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 3:32 pm

Hi in s/o of earlier Mussar thread I want to create a place to share incidents where unnecessary lecturing was actually damaging spiritually, emotionally or mentally.

To all that are unable to understand why someone else’s comment is able to affect you, I envy your perfect spiritual, mental or emotional state and please refrain from commenting.

Here is a real story.

A couple years ago while in late pregnancy I was struggling with many issues including prenatal depression, and financial stress . One late afternoon I was tired, sticky and exhausted from chasing toddler in dusty park, when a woman approached me with a phone number of a hot line that has lectures about the holiness of an unborn child and the importance of keeping your belly discreet.
Apparently my stretched-out, bleach stained and sweat riddled maternity top was showing too much...... needless to say I cried more than usual that evening and didn’t call the number..........
.............................

Who’s next?

amother

Puce

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 3:43 pm

I held the door open for a woman once and got treated to a looonnng lecture about Tznius -including a printed pamphlet. Her main concern was that my hair was too long (I was literally a regular by girl).

Didn’t cut my hair for years after that to spite her.

You want to give Mussar people? Follow the halachot about giving Mussar, it’s not a free for all

amother

Winterberry

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 3:46 pm

Okay, this wasn't as damaging, but I was totally blindsided at the time:

My sem took us on a trip to a different country towards the end of the year. Two of the girls were in charge of arranging food for the trip. I am a very picky eater and I went to them before the trip and asked them if they could please just make sure there was peanut butter and jelly, I didn't mind eating the same thing every day, but I wanted to make sure there was something for me to eat.

They agreed, but apparently either forgot or didn't take me seriously, because when we came to the other country most of the meals had nothing I could eat. I had a few snacks I had brought along, which I ate slowly, but I was getting really hungry.

After 3 days of near-fasting, for dinner we were given food from a local yeshivah. The food was simple, but had none of the ingredients that I couldn't stand.

I was STARVING! I practically inhaled a huge plateful and went back for seconds.

One of the sem teachers was appalled at how I was eating. She came over to me and proceeded to give me a speech about how one must not be so into materialism. It's important to eat like a mentch and not get so into the food.

I just looked at her.

amother

Stoneblue

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 3:50 pm

Interesting to note that so far this thread is entirely about tznius-and subjective tznius at that.
My neighbor "discreetly" handed me a pamphlet with hilchos tznius and explained that I may not have known the halachos. I was confused until she explained that my shell's neckline was stretched. I'm usually pretty tzniusdik and I think the way she handled this was demeaning. As a neighbor, we were close enough that it would have been more appropriate for her to simply say, "You're shell's stretched out."

amother

Seashell

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 4:06 pm

The only unsolicited tznius comment I would dream of making to anyone is to tell her her slip or bra strap is showing, she has a button open in the middle of her shirt, or her zipper is open in the back--something that's clearly a mistake that any normal person would want to fix. Otherwise, a person's clothing choices are none of my business.

I wouldn't appreciate being told my shell's stretched out. I know doggone well it's stretched out, it's not like a slip showing that can happen in an instant and without my knowledge. If I'm wearing a stretched-out shell, it's because I have no other, and your comment would serve only to embarrass me.

zaq

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 4:10 pm

amother [ Stoneblue ] wrote:

Interesting to note that so far this thread is entirely about tznius-

Not entirely so. Winterberry was talking about eating.
But even were it so, it would come as no surprise. This is THE topic on which women are lectured from all sides by every imaginable authority and "authority." I imagine it gives some women a bit of their own back to lecture other women.

amother

Gardenia

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 4:16 pm

Someone sent me several letters in the mail and then called me to say that hair sticking out is assur, that my little 5 year old’s clothes are not tznius enough, and a whole bunch of other issues that are apparently assur to her but not to me because I don’t follow her shitos. She told me things like “if you don’t have yiras shamayim at least try to have yiras basar vdam” as if the entire world is keeping her “halachos” and I’m a public sinner.

She called me on erev Yom Kippur and I couldn’t daven throughout the day because she made me feel so wicked.

I started resenting those ultra frum people and their chumras

SixOfWands

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 4:25 pm

amother [ Gardenia ] wrote:

The hug is real.

Write her a letter back.

Tell her that you've consulted with YOUR local rabbi, and your hair, and your child are just fine, thank you very much.

Then tell her that you grant her mechila. Mechila for the pain she caused. Mechila for the fact that she made you feel less than you are. Mechila for the fact that you couldn't daven.

Re-read it.

Then tear it into a million pieces. It will be meaningless to her. It sounds more like she's got some sort of OCD issues than that she's "ultra frum." But maybe it will help you.

Chickensoupprof

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 4:28 pm

I was using the Eruv in Manchester UK and then a woman came over to me and pointed at my bag and I said 'Is this your weekday bag?'' ''What?'' ''On shabbos you are supposed to carry on a shabbos bag'' ''Look, in my place where I live there is no eruv so if I carry this bag now I'm using a shabbos bag?'' I asked later various rabbonim and they all said it was ridiculous what she said but it made me insecure...

The thing was also, the assumption that my really expensive bag was a weekday bag and it was just a week before rosh hashana I was like... Lady....

Last edited by Chickensoupprof on Thu, Dec 30 2021, 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Springgreen

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 4:38 pm

[quote="amother [ Stoneblue ]"]Interesting to note that so far this thread is entirely about tznius
And another …. I know a young married woman who was publicly rebuked by her aunt for her exuberant dancing at her brothers wedding . In front of her mother in law , grandmother in law and aunt in law . The gracious young lady kept quiet and did not answer back but was clearly humiliated. Needless to say ,she has no relationship with that aunt.

amother

Mint

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 4:45 pm

In 12th grade I was insecure, far from home (boarded) and had few friends. One of my friends who had taken me into her family told me one day that being friends with me was not conducive to improving her middos. (I listened to secular music, was boy crazy (from afar)- typical teenage stuff). That was the end of my friendship with her and with her family. It hurts me to this day. And I am over 50- still listening to secular music and still boy crazy (about my husband and sons TG)

Rubies

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 4:48 pm

amother [ Stoneblue ] wrote:

You should discreetly hand her a pamphlet on relationships.

amother

Eggplant

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 4:53 pm

I am a BT. My mother always accepted my choice in life and always helped me. However, we still had a lot of communication issues because she has always been overcritical and dismissive about me. We fought a lot. I also persued an academic career at that point, and my mom was theoretically supportive but not in practice, so that didn't work out.

I went to a kiddush once and a rebetzen asked how it was going. I vaguely said that it is not easy to deal with my mom. Then she told me a story about a baalas teshuva, whose parents haven't accepted her choice,they expected her to have a career while she chose to have many kids. But she still was very nice to them.

That made cry and feel awful because that situation was opposite of mine. I was always getting triggered by my mom and we had many clashes.

amother

NeonPurple

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 5:36 pm

I was told not to wear a certain one of my wigs to an upsherin Bec the upsherin boy should only be exposed to kedusha on that day.

When I expressed my shock at that insinuation she felt the need to calm me down by saying “down worry, I also told Aviva she can’t come wearing pants”

amother

NeonPurple

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 5:38 pm

A few days after my parents very public separation my principal called me in to ask me who my morah diasrah was. When she heard I didn’t have any she said ok I will be yours and proceeded to tell me that she will be teaching me hilchos kibbud av that apply in my situation.
I got up looked her in the eye and said
“When I’ll need your help, I’ll ask for it” and proceeded to walk out her door, and walk all the way home.

Amelia Bedelia

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 5:40 pm

amother [ NeonPurple ] wrote:

Good for you! You handled that well!