I need a consequence to stop the violence.

Heyaaa

Wed, May 18 2022, 3:33 am

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

Yes and no.

Yes the child needs calming down techniques, no it might not be that the parent hasn't taught them.

Sometimes the child has self-regulation issues that the parent can't necessarily solve just by teaching skills. Regardless of the child's own issues that need therapies or meds, the other children in the family deserve to be safe and the parent does need to ensure in the immediate sense that the violent child is removed from the scene and learns that no matter what your difficulties are, no matter how you feel, it is not okay to be violent.

I agree but the question is if there is a better way for everyone and not just the easiest way for the parents. With kids who cannot self regulate, many parenting experts recommend holding the child down and hugging them until they calm down. Also, I prefer sending the kids to my room as a time out because a parent's room feels safe whereas if their room is used for a punishment then their room will be associated with negative feelings.

Time out is not supposed to be a punishment. It is not a deterrent for a kid who is out of control. It is supposed to be a reset and for that, it needs to be done as gently and kindly as possible. In the moment, the parent may be out of control and so it may be a screaming match to get the kid into the room, but when a parent is thinking more clearly, they should explain to the kid that the purpose of time out is not because we hate them and don't want to be near them, but rather to keep everyone safe. It is good to ask the kid, what can you do next time when you are in time out that will help you to calm down and get out your frustration? perhaps an art project, an instrument or a special book that you grab right before you go in time out?

Heyaaa

Wed, May 18 2022, 3:42 am

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

I also believe that such a kid needs even more kindness. I can't imagine the hurt that the kid feels when they know they are out of control and on top of that, their family hates them. Violence cannot be tolerated but the kid also has to feel loved. Maybe a sensory swing would help? They are meant for autistic kids and they are so comforting.

amother

Chartreuse

Wed, May 18 2022, 3:49 am

Heyaaa wrote:

Hugging the child or holding the child down often isn't possible without more violence or aggression. The child fights and the physical fight can last forty minutes or more. During that time the child is NOT calming down but the other kids are learning that if you want the parent to stop everything and hug you, then you should be violent. And the violent child is learning that if you don't want your parent to pay ANY attention to your siblings, then you should be violent.

Plus it means that the child who is violent hogs ALL of the parent's attention, which is not fair to the victims.

I would not send my kids to my room. But I hear your point.

Quote:

Time out is not supposed to be a punishment. It is not a deterrent for a kid who is out of control. It is supposed to be a reset and for that, it needs to be done as gently and kindly as possible. In the moment, the parent may be out of control and so it may be a screaming match to get the kid into the room, but when a parent is thinking more clearly, they should explain to the kid that the purpose of time out is not because we hate them and don't want to be near them, but rather to keep everyone safe. It is good to ask the kid, what can you do next time when you are in time out that will help you to calm down and get out your frustration? perhaps an art project, an instrument or a special book that you grab right before you go in time out?

Depends on what you use it for and who you ask.

If the child is wild and out of control, but NOT dangerous to others - then you say, "Take a book and go read on your bed or in the corner and calm down." Great. Reset. Gentle, redirection, kind, not punishment, teaches children to self-regulate.

If the child is being dangerous to others and does not respond to a warning of, "Do you need to calm down?" or "We don't hit. Stop it." then the child DOES need to see that this behavior is punished and DOES need a stronger deterrent than just simple redirection.

There are many ways to explain time out, I listed them earlier.

You can tie the violence to time-out by saying that you need to calm down. You can say that others deserve to be safe and corner for the hitter keeps others safe. If you need to, you can also say that when you hit no one wants to be around you. Depends on what the kid will take seriously.

Let me say this. An 8yo or over who is having violent tantrums three or more times a week almost certainly has a diagnosis that requires medication. Instead of suggesting that the parents be better parents and saying that they are parenting wrong, encourage the parents to recognize that the child's behavior is not normal and since the parents themselves ARE normal, this probably isn't all their fault and they should get the child evaluated.

And again, regardless of diagnosis a child must understand that hitting is not allowed and that it will bring consequences, no matter who you hit or where you do it or who the adult in charge is. And the other kids deserve to be safe, and if the only way to do that is to banish the violent kid, THEN THAT IS WHAT YOU DO.

You can look on ima, there are women here who grew up with a violent sibling and can tell you what it's like to have the parents not punish the child because they believed in gentle parenting or felt powerless to protect the other kids. It is so damaging. One child who can't control themselves should not be allowed to abuse others. AND VIOLENCE ON A REGULAR BASIS IS ABUSE.

amother

Chartreuse

Wed, May 18 2022, 3:53 am

Heyaaa wrote:

They may need even more kindness but the siblings need to feel protected and safe.

You cannot focus solely on the violent child and helping that child feel loved, while the other children are being assaulted, on a regular basis, and then ignored while you make sure the violent child feels supported and loved and helped.

First you remove the violent child.
Then you offer support, help, protection, a listening ear, to the siblings who were hurt.
Then when the violent child is calm you offer support, help, a listening ear, kindness, the the violent child.
They can have their love and kindness but not at the siblings' expense.

Not everyone can put in a sensory swing, btw, and not for all children would it help.

BTW this is why I said that corner, moderate corner, for NORMAL kids works. For DMDD kids nothing will work.

I am telling you that none of what we are discussing is necessary, other than a brief corner sentence in the living room (not banished), when a child is normal. And that after that brief sentence you talk, teach techniques, etc. etc. And it works beautifully and the child doesn't feel unloved or traumatized. Because the child is NORMAL.

For NORMAL children you don't need to hold the child down, you don't need to hug the child for ages until the child calms down, you don't need to tell them that you're protecting siblings from them. You just say, "You did something dangerous, please sit in the corner." They sit. Or you remove privileges until they sit, and they sit, and they get up, and it is done, and they remember for next time. And in the meantime you teach them better skills.

It's really not hard to parent normal kids. It's not hard to be a great parent to normal kids. It's not hard to feel that you've got this and you know better than anyone struggling if you have normal kids.

But I will tell you right now that what OP is describing does not sound normal if her children are over age 4-5. There are two options, unless her children are very young: Either there is something dysfunctional about her entire marriage and household. Or her children are not normal children and need interventions and comprehensive psychiatric evaluations. She doesn't sound abnormal from her posts so I'm going to assume the latter.

amother

Chartreuse

Wed, May 18 2022, 4:05 am

Heyaaa wrote:

And PS, I'm not OP, and I didn't ask for parenting advice.

I'm trying to help OP by sharing what works for us.

You can disagree but please stop trying to help me parent. I had enough of that and it permanently damaged my belief in myself and my parenting. And it wasn't even my fault, and we have very solid (objective, unequivocal) proof of that today.

(And hearing me being told how to parent permanently damaged my older kids' relationship with DH and I, because they saw such comments as "our parents don't know how to parent" and now we have so much less authority. That's not relevant because this is ima but please, please, watch yourself.)

Heyaaa

Wed, May 18 2022, 5:47 am

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

I don't know anything about dmdd. I never heard of it until now. I am not a professional, just a mom.

My best friend is deathly allergic to peanuts. I love peanuts and eat them regularly. Peanuts are a healthy snack (when eaten in moderation) for most people but can kill others.

There are general rules that are better for MOST kids. Those same rules are toxic for irregular kids. I don't know you and we are trying to give advice to OP. I will never know if she threw the information down the toilet but she is asking in order to accumulate a large amount of btdt which she will then use to make her own decision. All I am doing is giving my experience. My experience is MY EXPERIENCE, it is not Torah Misinai, it is not better than your experience, it is not worse than your experience. It is objectively my experience which I accumulated as a result of 1) years of my life, 2) speaking to others 3) taking classes 4) trying different techniques

ETA 5) reading tons of parenting books 6) watching YouTube videos, etc

BTW when I say that may experience is not better or worse than your experience, I don't mean that our advice is equal. I don't know whose advice is better but I know that the techniques that I am suggesting not to use made my kids worse and the suggestions that I gave made my kids better. You had the opposite experience.

Someone said that if a kid is being sent to their room 2-3 times a week then the kid needs professional intervention, which I am 100% in agreement with. In such a situation, that kid is incapable of regulating themself and making them live in their room forever is destructive. I have friends though whose parents were abusive and they sent their kids to therapy rather than work on their own parenting. They continued the abuse and kept up the banner "what can I do if my kid is screwed up". You DON'T sound like that kind of parent. You sound like a parent who is trying your best in an unideal situation.

amother

Lime

Wed, May 18 2022, 6:06 am

My children are neurotypical and would not sit in a corner just because I told them to. It's kind of an odd thing to tell someone, to go sit in a corner. They'd refuse or say no way why should I?
Punishments and consequences do not help with my very normal children. Whenever I tried it, it only exacerbated the bad behaviors and started an even worse pattern of those behaviors.
I've learned to communicate the message I need to teach them, and move on. No need for extra consequences or punishments to reinforce my words. They get my message, I've taught them appropriate correct behavior. Next time either they will or they won't remember, but one day when it is ingrained enough, they will.
Their teachers who try to give them consequences, find out very quickly that it only backfires on them. Every year I need to clue them in on this because it becomes a real issue.
My eight year old came home from a playdate recently, and told me she would never want to live in that house because they put their kids in timeout. She proceeded to explain to me how timeout works, as if I've never heard of it. She had no concept of it before.
In general I try to treat my children as mature, capable, responsible people. Just as I wouldn't give a consequence to an adult or tell my neighbor or husband to stand in the corner, I don't do these things to my kids.
My teen son in yeshiva was told to bring $15 for coming five min late, and he flat out refused. With chutzpah and yelling. Because if you yell at him, he will yell back. I've never heard him yell at home, it doesn't happen. He also didn't think it was fair to be fined over coming five minutes late to class. (I didn't tell him this but I agree with him- in the real world adults are 5-10 mins late all the time and no one bats an eyelash.) He went to the principal who knows and understands him, and he removed the fine, telling him if it happens again, don't fight with the teacher, just come straight to him and he will take care of it. (My son has complied and paid much bigger fines for things he has done because he understood he was at fault and took responsibility.)
My children are very normal. But they are not lemmelach. If they feel they are being treated unfairly or in a degrading way, they'll let it be known. I find the corner degrading so I've never considered sending a child there.
I'm saying all this because I think we need to be careful when we describe normal children as easy and compliant and resilient.

myname1

Wed, May 18 2022, 6:10 am

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

For NORMAL children you don't need to hold the child down, you don't need to hug the child for ages until the child calms down, you don't need to tell them that you're protecting siblings from them. You just say, "You did something dangerous, please sit in the corner." They sit. Or you remove privileges until they sit, and they sit, and they get up, and it is done, and they remember for next time. And in the meantime you teach them better skills.

It's really not hard to parent normal kids. It's not hard to be a great parent to normal kids. It's not hard to feel that you've got this and you know better than anyone struggling if you have normal kids.

But I will tell you right now that what OP is describing does not sound normal if her children are over age 4-5. There are two options, unless her children are very young: Either there is something dysfunctional about her entire marriage and household. Or her children are not normal children and need interventions and comprehensive psychiatric evaluations. She doesn't sound abnormal from her posts so I'm going to assume the latter.

I'm not sure this is true. "Normal" has a very wide range. All people have different middos and personalities. Some are very angry and hard to calm down. Doesn't make them abnormal and in need of medication. That's why we are supposed to treat our children based on what works best for each child.

amother

Chartreuse

Wed, May 18 2022, 6:30 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

There is so much to unpack in your post, that I don't want to get into because that's not the point of this thread, but I want to say these two things:

1. Normal doesn't mean compliant. But there is a range of normal and there are kids who fall outside of it. Davka a child who is always compliant and never really gets upset, that is a red flag. But yes there is something called normal and there are children who aren't normal.

2. You find corner degrading - that to me is something that you should figure out. Why do you find it degrading. That has nothing to do with whether corner is something that's okay to do or not, it has to do with your own hangups and experiences.

amother

Chartreuse

Wed, May 18 2022, 6:37 am

myname1 wrote:

There yes is a range but there are also people who do need an evaluation and for whom medication is the only thing that works.

It took me years to learn this because I was so focused on natural and gentle parenting. (I attachment parent, EBF, don't sleep train, don't do daycare, have homeschooled grade-school when I felt it necessary...that kind of crunchy natural gentle parent....you know the type...)

I'm sorry that you are so stuck in your view that all kids are normal and medication is not an answer ever. I was also stuck there once and then I learned better.

But more than that, I want to point out to OP and everyone else reading that you are sadly misinformed and that they should not believe your post. Because when a child isn't neurotypical, when a child's chemistry isn't normal, then yes we don't treat them as we would normal children and yes we need sometimes to medicate or take other drastic steps.

I wish it wasn't this way but it is.

amother

Chartreuse

Wed, May 18 2022, 6:41 am

Heyaaa wrote:

Fair enough. Thank you.

I am sorry I jumped on your post.

myname1

Wed, May 18 2022, 9:54 am

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

Woah! I'm misinformed because I don't think every child who won't say "Oh okay, I'll chill here for a few. All better." needs medication or more drastic interventions?? I didn't say "There are no kids who need medication." I said there are kids who would react better to a different technique and might need more time to calm down. You really think every child who doesn't do what yours do so beautifully (I'm so glad it works for your family!) is not normal and needs medication or more???

amother

Chartreuse

Wed, May 18 2022, 10:13 am

myname1 wrote:

Then you completely misread and misunderstood pretty much all my posts.

I rest my case. I don't argue with people who can't understand what I write.

But just to remind you, you did not say that some kids need different techniques or might need more time to calm down. You did not say that kids who don't respond well to corner might respond well to something different. Here is what you DID say:

myname1 wrote:

And you were responding to this:

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

If you have to hold a child for ages until the child calms down, that is not normal. If you have to tell the child that a sibling needs protection, there's already a problem - the child should not have to be told that.

If a child is consistently violent, that is not normal.

Maybe the child doesn't need medication, but needs something else instead. Still the child should be taken for an evaluation because these behaviors are not normal.