S/O Question for yeshivish newly marrieds

amother

Bottlebrush

Thu, Jun 16 2022, 2:49 pm

amother [ Valerian ] wrote:

I’ll bite. Yes in all honesty. I would be upset.

I have a lot of sisters and I would feel bad that I didn’t get what they got.

My younger sister got married recently and her mother-in-law checked out our jewelry 10 times to make sure to buy her in the same range and I thought that was really nice of them, even though money is tight for them. I know her DH chipped in, it wasn’t only from them.

I’m grateful to my in-laws, they really spoiled me. I wear my jewelry every day/Shabbos and I love every piece. I should add that they are very comfortable and are able to easily afford it so I have no guilt. If I knew they couldn’t I would probably have asked them to buy me just a nice ring and forget the rest. I’m not going to put a number but they were very very very generous and I’m extremely grateful. I don’t take it for granted.

The bolded makes me sad. It is really nice that they did this, but it’s unfortunate that our society has set these standards and that people who can’t afford to keep them still do.

AlwaysGrateful

Thu, Jun 16 2022, 3:03 pm

So this whole post was based on the post about how much the mother of a chosson should expect to spend. And I realize that not every expense is considered "standard" in your circles -- a car and a sheitel seem to be the most obvious examples.

But these moms were spending 30,000 dollars on a wedding. Let's assume that you are a stereotypical yeshivish family with kids spaced two years apart. Let's say you don't have a huge family, but not a small one either, say 5 kids. (Please no one be offended by these numbers, I'm just trying to get an estimate here.) So that means that over the course of a decade (assuming your kids get married at the same age, just for argument's sake, and I know that's not something to take for granted), you're spending an extra 150,000 dollars on weddings. If they're all boys. AND THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE LESS THAN THE GIRL'S SIDE SPENDS. Which means if two or three of them are girls, it's more like 200,000 dollars? How is that even manageable? And with twice the number of kids, which is not unheard of, this is followed by the same thing the next decade??

Now, if this was all for things that were necessities, I'd understand. But it is not. It really takes tens of thousands of dollars to make a girl feel that she's loved in her new family? It's one thing if the family is extremely wealthy and it's not a big deal to them. But shouldn't we be teaching our daughters to appreciate the value of money and to appreciate that money doesn't equal love?

I just don't understand. I'd like to say I don't want my boys to marry anyone who feels this way, and maybe THOSE are the questions that should be asked in shidduchim. After all, if "boys can afford to be picky," can't I just be picky about having a daughter who is low-maintenance, not just for my sake, but for my son's? As an OOTer who is also yeshivish, this just isn't the hashkafa I ascribe to.

(This is all extremely hypothetical, since again, I don't have kids in shidduchim at present. And maybe I'll change my mind when the time comes. This just seems so nonsensical...)

AlwaysGrateful

Thu, Jun 16 2022, 3:09 pm

amother [ Acacia ] wrote:

I'm pretty newlywed. grew up in lakewood and part of the very yeshivish circles adn literally never heard of giving towards a shaitel. everything else is totally standard aside from a car.

girls that are working for 2 years or so usually have some money and as soon as they marry, during sheva brachos, they buy a car with that money.

I def have heard that boy's side pays part or whole towards a car but its totally not a must. my sister just got married and the boy side made it very clear right before they got engaged that he cannot afford to give anything towards a car and everyone was completely fine with that.

Okay, I didn't mean for people to nitpick on the car or the shaitel. The point is, you write that the rest is "totally standard." But what if your in-laws were not wealthy and did not get some of them for you? Would you be offended? Resentful? If they did get them for you, did you really feel indebted to them? Or was it just "standard" so it didn't feel like anything much, they were doing what they "had" to do anyway?

Someone said how said it was that people who can't afford these gifts still go into debt so that they can afford them. But this is why. See these women who felt their in-laws were "stingy" for not getting them these things, which would have possibly put them into debt and created plenty of stress? One response even said that hey, it's cheaper than the THERAPY that your dil will probably need if you don't buy these things for her, because you're obviously ruining her mental life and shalom bayis by doing so. (Okay, so I'm paraphrasing a bit, but that was the idea.)

These are EXPENSIVE items that I would never buy for myself or allow my husband to buy for me, due to the fact that we try very hard to live within our means. To me, a splurge on myself means buying a Shabbos outfit for 50 bucks instead of searching around to find it on sale for 30. Nothing that costs thousands of dollars. So this is just such a foreign concept to me.

amother

Anemone

Thu, Jun 16 2022, 3:17 pm

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

So the girls is responsible to buy the sheitels for herself?

If in laws don’t pitch in for sheitels it’s not something a girl loses out on. Her parents will typically buy it for her.
I think it’s become a way for boys parents to acknowledge that girls side has a lot more expenses when marrying off a daughter and assisting with it.
But the Sheitel is between machutim not the kallah.
So that wouldn’t really affect her either way

I bought my own shaitels (and furniture) with my own hard-earned money. Definitely would’ve been nice if my in laws got me one but I didn’t really expect them to. My parents didn’t pay for anything outside of the actual wedding (I paid for my gown, and everything else that wasn’t something at the wedding hall).

amother

Petunia

Thu, Jun 16 2022, 3:20 pm

amother [ Anemone ] wrote:

This is underscores the desirability of "older" girls in the shidduch world vs just out of school. The average 19 year old wouldn't be able to do this, unless she had savings (and let's face it, if she comes from a family where the parents can't affect any of these extras outside of the wedding, she probably used those savings on seminary).

Chayalle

Thu, Jun 16 2022, 3:21 pm

I just want to ask you a question - hypothetically, if your son is going to marry someone and learn for a few years, who is going to do the supporting? How much is that going to cost per year? Do you expect your son to live really frugally, or according to normal (not ostentatious, just normal) community standards?

I mean by this, living in a normal-sized apartment, owning a car (or two, if she needs to get to work and he needs to take kids to the babysitter and get to Yeshiva), normal furniture (beds, dresser, table and chairs, wall unit for sforim, crib for baby, etc....) eating normally (no steak, but yes chicken and meatballs and normal fair), paying the babysitter/playgroup, having a working washing machine/dryer, paying medical and dental expenses, wearing normal (even sale) clothes and shoes, etc. I probably left out a few details here.

amother

Anemone

Thu, Jun 16 2022, 3:34 pm

amother [ Petunia ] wrote:

Yeah I was 24 and had gotten my masters degree 2 years prior to my wedding. But I ate up my savings for my wedding/setting up my apartment but at least it was for good reasons. No one had any expectation of parental support. In the end my DH’s parents actually sent a little bit of monthly money but that was not something that was ever discussed ahead of time or expected.

amother

Valerian

Thu, Jun 16 2022, 3:38 pm

amother [ Bottlebrush ] wrote:

The bolded makes me sad. It is really nice that they did this, but it’s unfortunate that our society has set these standards and that people who can’t afford to keep them still do.

You missed out the next part of the paragraph. Her husband paid his share. He’s a working guy. I believe they split the cost. She’s a really mentch and didn’t want her new daughter in law to feel less then for marrying a “learning” family. (Her husband still learnes and she teaches.) most of us married people of means.

But yes, standards today are insane. And I think more important then all the diamonds in the world is to make the new bride feel welcome into the home as someone said above. I got all the gold and glitter but my mother in law was far from welcoming. Took years to sort that one out….

AlwaysGrateful

Thu, Jun 16 2022, 3:40 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I honestly think that's a big part of my question, although I wasn't saying it straight out. I supported my husband in yeshiva on a very low salary for the years we were in kollel. We scrimped and saved and made it work. It was hard, but I really think those years played a big part in who I am today. I had several kids in a small two-bedroom apartment and we made it work and were proud that we could. My parents and in-laws showed love by giving us things, but they weren't expected. For example, when my mother offered to buy us a crib when I was pregnant with my first, I was so grateful. I had been expecting to pay for it myself, get one secondhand, something like that. She also helped me to stock my apartment with food before the wedding. My mother-in-law bought a bunch of cheap onesies for my oldest, and I was again so grateful that I didn't need to buy them myself. But they weren't expected, they were appreciated.

I'd like to be able to help my kids too, but I can't imagine I'll be able to afford it if I'm paying off all of the debt that I owe from marrying them off.

I guess I just don't understand this new kollel mentality. I don't think it existed for the masses when I got married, although I do think it was starting then. It scares me. Like I bought into this mentality (I didn't grow up yeshivish) that isn't what I thought it was. I thought it was about valuing Torah over materialism, and yes, I always knew there were materialistic yeshivish people out there...but the fact that this is "standard" seems to show something about this society that I never believed was really true across the board.

To the previous poster, I'm sorry if I came across as offensive. I think I'm feeling emotional about this because it feels like I've signed up for something that I didn't intend to sign up for. I've been trying to raise my kids with the ideals that I think "yeshivish" means, which is that Torah trumps everything in this world. I can't imagine how one of them would respond if their new spouse was resentful because their parents didn't drop thousands of dollars to buy them diamonds and silver and gold. Or even a tehillim, siddur, set of machzorim when I'm assuming they already have at least a siddur and tehillim -- and can't they daven just fine out of those? It just seems to be that the priorities are misplaced...and I'm struggling to see myself fitting into this world.

I'm being totally honest here, and not posting amother.

Last edited by AlwaysGrateful on Thu, Jun 16 2022, 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Papayawhip

Thu, Jun 16 2022, 3:44 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Exactly.

In the yeshivish world the girl takes so much on herself. I don’t think you need to offer extravagant but trying the hardest to get the nicest you can, offering a choice (nicer ring and no bracelet for example).

My sister supports her husband in learning for 20 years. Her in-laws got her a very basic ring that she appreciates (less than a ct Forsure). The rest of the jewelry they got her she could never wear. It was small for a bad mitzvah girl.

They’re also not comfortable financially but they have money for what they need- meat for yt and camp for kids and clothing for their kallahs. They could have tried harder or asked and given less but nicer.

amother

Petunia

Thu, Jun 16 2022, 3:53 pm

amother [ Papayawhip ] wrote:

If it's that important to a girl she needs to be honest with herself. Date people from more lavish families or look for a husband already employed.
Or wait a few years before dating, build up some savings, and indulge yourself with the jewelry you've been dreaming of. My 2 older single friends weren't extravagant but at a certain point treated themselves to a nice bracelet or necklace or whatever. Because they treated themselves, they didn't feel deprived and by the time they got married they were honestly able to say, no they didn't need or want a lot of the things that the average young kallah expects/would feel weird if she didn't get it like everyone else. And if they wanted an extra nice wig or wedding earrings or such, they didn't feel guilty that their parents or in laws had to extend themselves--they gladly paid for it themselves.

amother

Milk

Thu, Jun 16 2022, 3:56 pm

I'm married almost four years. My in-laws let me choose from a bunch of kallah bracelets that are comprised of diamond chips only, an engagement ring, pearl necklace, leichter (actually very bekavadik) and a siddur and tehillim and only Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur machzarim with my name on them.
My parents paid for our car and my shaitels, furniture etc.
The boy's side paid for flowers, music, photographer but not videographer. My parents supplemented the flowers and music because they can afford to and they wanted more than what my in-laws could pay for. They also paid for a brand name singer.
I wish my kallah bracelet wasn't only diamond chips and I wish I didn't get a pearl necklace because I don't like it or wear it.
I don't think it's fair to expect more than what I received as a kallah, knowing my in-laws are klei kodesh.
Separately, it does bother me when my in-laws make chasunahs and the marrieds are all on our own for makeup, hair, gowns and all other wedding expenses. On top of that, we're expected to make at least one siblings sheva brachos and it ends up being a lot of money. When my parents make weddings, they pay for hair, makeup, gowns, babysitting at the wedding etc.
Also, my in laws live out of town and do not help pay for traveling expenses for sukkos and Pesach. I understand that they are paying for food and hosting us so I guess that is all they can afford.