Is Cleveland as great as he thinks it is? + Waterbury Info

amother

Tue, Aug 09 2022, 9:34 am

My husband is all excited about moving to Cleveland. He's been hearing about the housing being cheap and fairly new, there's a great young crowd (late 20s/early 30s) and good kollel options that pay well. Supposedly free tuition for kollel families.
His response to my main concerns regarding the harsh winters and the distance from our families is that we'll get snow tires and how often do we really need to see our families?
We currently live about 2 hours from my in-laws and his siblings, and try to visit about once every 6 weeks, and even then I still feel like the grandchild/cousin/in-law relationship suffers from it.
We live close to my family and I can't imagine giving up the ability to make last-minute Shabbos plans or to drop my kids off for a couple of hours on a Sunday.
The winters concern me in that it means more months spent cooped up inside, which my kids and I struggle with.
I'm also unsure as to what the job market looks like for me there. I'm an accountant (financial, not tax), and I wonder how many options there are for frum women (read shorter hours) that actually pay as an accountant and not as a bookkeeper.
Is the cost of living actually lower than NY other than the obvious difference in housing? And is it really so easy to rent and buy houses that are cheap, or is it just hype/in the less frum-populated areas?
We also don't know anyone in Cleveland, and I struggle enough with making friends where I'm comfortable and familiar with people. I'm nervous that there won't be much opportunity to meet people I have young children and don't go to shul and I assume people live a bit more spread out.

amother

Jade

Tue, Aug 09 2022, 9:36 am

You have a lot of good reasons for staying right where you are.
What are his reasons for wanting to move?
How old are your kids? Are they happy in their schools etc?
In general being isolated at home with kids no friends no family is a recipe for trouble especially for the mom.
Like it almost does not matter “how great” it is somewhere else. That
May not be applicable to your specific family.
Financials are only a slice of the picture.
And not apples to apples like you all have to look at the whole big picture.
Healthy close family is indeed invaluable.

amother

Quince

Tue, Aug 09 2022, 9:41 am

Cost of living is definitely lower.
In terms of houses, they are cheaper but there's not a lot available in the frum areas.
Before you move make sure you can get your kids into school because the more yeshivish (although weaker) school, YDT, is bursting at the seams
In terms of kollels paying well, the max is about $1000 a month. And its not necessarily so easy to get into a kollel that will pay you that if you don't have connections.
Are you interested in Cleveland Heights or university heights? That will make a difference, they are very different neighborhoods.

amother

Jasmine

Tue, Aug 09 2022, 9:57 am

I am a born and bred clevelander. It's not as great as it's made out to be. The way people talk make it sound like a paradise where everything is cheap or free.

There may be some nice perks that other cities do not have but it takes significant time, energy, effort and mazal for all the pieces to come together.

Getting into a kollel is not easy. You can't just pop in and join. Either have lots of money to donate. Or be a really good guy and fit with the image whatever kollel wants and you might get in. No guarantees whatsoever.

Housing is challenging too. Houses may be less expensive but it is hard to find one on a block that makes sense for you. There are limited options. And then good ones are snatched up before you blink, of course.

Getting into a school can be challenging if the one you want is full.

Getting the tuition vouchers is not guaranteed either. The rules change rapidly and you can be left with a $10,000+ tuition bill per kid and hope the school will work with you for scholarships.

Babysitting here is a nightmare. If you work even slightly more than 9:30-1- good luck to you my friend.

You might be successful finding a job but also- no guarantees and for sure no guarantees about finding one with "frum hours".

Weather- eh. Doesn't bother me. I never had snow tires and have been fine. You just drive slow. My kids also love playing in the snow (as do I!)

amother

Brown

Tue, Aug 09 2022, 10:07 am

The fee tuition for kollel families is not entirely true. First off, many locals who do not benefit from the vouchers continuously try to push to cancel the vouchers as they are not happy tax money going to private schools. So things are constantly changing with that (I think it's being discontinued, but not totally sure find out before you go). Otherwise it's income based voucher so if you work but husband in kollel you probably won't end up getting the "free" tuition, you get half off for a location based voucher but only free with low income.
Also the academy and YDT are bursting at seams. If you want to be a teacher maybe they'd take your kid cause they need teachers. But they're really maxed out

amother

Tue, Aug 09 2022, 10:41 am

Thank you for all the responses!
They're realistic and enlightening.

We don't want to stay in our current neighborhood, as it's not the right fit hashkafically and housing is crazy expensive.

My husband is in kollel and our plan is for him to remain in kollel long-term, but the ones near us are not serious and it's taking a toll on him, since he is very serious about his learning and can't handle the fact that guys come in late, leave early, talk through seder etc. He just wants to learn in peace with a good chavrusah in a like-minded atmosphere.
We're not yeshivish, but my husband leans more toward that end since he is very careful about halacha and has strong hashkafos, and wants our kids to go to more yeshivish schools.
Our kids are all preschool and below, so it's not really a consideration of uprooting them from a school they're comfortable in.

I also do need childcare for longer hours than the poster above mentioned - how do kollel wives make a living under those conditions??

What are the different neighborhoods like?

I am so nervous about moving and being miserable, I really really don't want to move so far away and be stuck inside for such a large portion of the year, but my husband thinks it's more of an attachment to the idea of being near family.

The fact is that I've always been prepared to move a little distance away and forgo the ability to pop by easily, since we never planned to stay where we are long-term. But there's a HUGE difference between a 2 hour drive and an 8-9 hour drive.

If anyone has any recommendations for places within a 2 or max 3 hour drive from NY with a more out of town flavor, somewhat affordable housing, and good kollelim and schools, feel free to let me know!

amother

Burgundy

Tue, Aug 09 2022, 10:59 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Thank you for all the responses!
They're realistic and enlightening.

We don't want to stay in our current neighborhood, as it's not the right fit hashkafically and housing is crazy expensive.

My husband is in kollel and our plan is for him to remain in kollel long-term, but the ones near us are not serious and it's taking a toll on him, since he is very serious about his learning and can't handle the fact that guys come in late, leave early, talk through seder etc. He just wants to learn in peace with a good chavrusah in a like-minded atmosphere.
We're not yeshivish, but my husband leans more toward that end since he is very careful about halacha and has strong hashkafos, and wants our kids to go to more yeshivish schools.
Our kids are all preschool and below, so it's not really a consideration of uprooting them from a school they're comfortable in.

I also do need childcare for longer hours than the poster above mentioned - how do kollel wives make a living under those conditions??

What are the different neighborhoods like?

I am so nervous about moving and being miserable, I really really don't want to move so far away and be stuck inside for such a large portion of the year, but my husband thinks I'm just being close-minded and too attached to the idea of being near family.
The fact is that I've always been prepared to move a little distance away and forgo the ability to pop by easily, since we never planned to stay where we are long-term. But there's a HUGE difference between a 2 hour drive and an 8-9 hour drive.

If anyone has any recommendations for places within a 2 or max 3 hour drive from NY with a more out of town flavor, somewhat affordable housing, and good kollelim and schools, feel free to let me know!

Waterbury or Naugatuck might work for you. There is a Waterbury kollel with a very nice crowd of families who live in the actual city, and there's another kollel affiliated with the Yesodei mesivta about 15 minutes away in Naugatuck. The kollel families in Naugatuck use all of Waterbury's infrastructure.
Housing is more expensive than Cleveland but much cheaper than NY (figure 350-400,000, and the houses are bigger than in University Heights. CT doesn't have vouchers but the school tuition is more reasonable than in OH.
There's plenty of day care options and a lot of people share babysitters in their homes. There are accounting jobs available nearby; there are several women who work as accountants in New Haven, New Britain, and Hartford.

amother

Tue, Aug 09 2022, 11:08 am

amother [ Dahlia ] wrote:

Forget everything else- if you’re not yeshivish, you’re not getting into any kollel in Cleveland. Not a chance . Besides for MAYBE the young Israel kollel.

To describe us a bit better - we're not yeshivish in that we don't speak "yeshivish", and while I dress tznius according to halacha, I wear a lace front and more currently stylish clothing. We don't have smartphones but have internet at home. My husband wears only black and white, but no peyos behind his ears.
I know these are all externals, but being that I already gave a more hashkafic description before, this may bring more clarity to what I mean.

What are your thoughs regarding what I described and our changes of getting into kollel there without connections or donating a building Very Happy

amother

Sapphire

Tue, Aug 09 2022, 11:12 am

I think based on what you described he should first get a short list of kollels he will be happy in and can get into.

Small towns are very difficult with babysitting and if you leave the larger communities it will be a thing to have to deal with.

Many smaller communities have it difficult to find a house within the frum area, even if they are less expensive than in town. They aren't free either.

Vouchers for cleveland are available now and have really made a huge difference for a lot of people especially people in kollel.

I know people who moved there for reasons like your dh gives and they are very happy with the decision.

But, tbh, it sounds like you want to stay near bigger communities and family. That is very valid. And if the wife/mother isn't happy, nobody is happy.

Your profession has been more flexible than others with remote jobs available so I don't think it will hold you back whatever you decide. Its also self-employable.

You cannot cancel quality of life over ease of financials when weighing everything. You have to give what both of you need equal weight.

amother

Tue, Aug 09 2022, 11:15 am

amother [ Burgundy ] wrote:

Thanks for the information, I was going to ask more about Waterbury, and I was actually thinking about it as an option before it was mentioned on this thread. What kind of community is it? Is it growing or has the big growth already slowed? Are the kollelim there made up of serious guys in our age range? What are the schooling options?
Do the daycares go past 3pm?
How's the rental scene there? We're hesitant to jump in and buy in a brand new area and would rather spend some time there first before making such a commitment.

amother

Tue, Aug 09 2022, 11:20 am

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

Thank you for your wise and balanced response.
I'm honestly not holding too much stock in this voucher thing, as I doubt we would qualify at my current salary, and I really don't want to cut my salary drastically in order to rely on various government programs.
You're right about my profession bwing more flexible. I've always resisted the remote option, but I'm open to it if it enables us to live in the best place for our family. Thanks for reminding me not to worry about it too much.

amother

Burgundy

Tue, Aug 09 2022, 11:38 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

It's growing quite a bit. It's primarily yeshivish but there's still a little bit of a mix. The kollelim are very serious; the one in Naugatuck skews younger (they usually have kids under the age of 7 or 8) and the Waterbury one has more of a mix of ages.
There's a Yeshiva ketana with separate divisions for boys and girls. Nursery and kindergarten are mixed and it looks as though Pre 1 A will be split this year.
There's a BY high school in Naugatuck (not part of the kollel, they bought a nice building there).
Some of the boys go to Yesodei in Naugatuck for mesivta, but most go to dorm yeshivas. There's an effort to open another local mesivta next year.
There's one very good daycare that goes all day (many of the professional women use it). A lot of families share babysitters in their homes, so there are a lot of options. I think there's another daycare opening in september.
There are rentals available, but realize that prices are going up, so a lot of new families buy right away if they can. But renting enables you to be in on the ground floor so to speak if something comes onto the market.
Come visit and take a look.