Children and touching

amother

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 1:39 pm

The child knows that it feels good and doesn't understand the implicationsof his action at the age of 2. So if he knows that it feel good, that is all he needs to know. When dealing with one's s-xuality, I think you are more prone to giving your child a complex, than picking one's nose. Picking your nose is about manners, but if it's done, it's "o.k." If a child puts his hands in inappropiate areas, it's a bit more offending. When the pamper goes off, and that is where their hands go, I don't remove their hands, I just simply put their pampers back on. It is something all children do, and it is something that they outgrow. When I said that at some point they realize it's not something that is done in public, it didn't necessarily validate it being done in private. Assuming that when they realize it's not meant to be done publicly, they won't do it in private either, because in their childlike perception, they understand that its just not done. At some point the boy will learn in school that it's not a matter of tznius...

Younger children touching themselves is a phase that they grow out of, and eventually come to terms with the implications of it at an appropiate age. I don't think an older child involves himself in such behavior unless s/he was touched innapropiately. If the child does, and the child is a bit older, and it's not because g-d forbid anything inappropiate happened with this child I would consult someone before jumping at a child and telling him off.

Motek

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 1:43 pm

amother wrote:

So if he knows that it feel good, that is all he needs to know.

why does he need to know that?

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It is something all children do, and it is something that they outgrow.

too many do not outgrow it and this is a major problem for boys

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At some point the boy will learn in school that it's not a matter of tznius...

it depends on the yeshiva, some say nothing

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I would consult someone before jumping at a child and telling him off.

since that's never a wise chinuch move

chocolate moose

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 2:43 pm

The yoetzet halacha had a discussion recently on such for a lady, and while it's (obviously) not the same aveirah as for a man, she said it wasn't allowed either.

When I asked her, she asked what the "need" was....and I was so mortified, I never asked again...

It's certainly not recommended!

amother

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 2:54 pm

new amother here- definitely not assur for a women. sometimes a woman does it out of habit and altho trying to stop is not able to because it started when so young. those people who never had this problem cannot understand, because it actually relaxes the body so much that sometimes it becomes a compulsive habit. any understanding and advice pointed to helping women deal with that should not be negative but constructive. this is especially true if a woman does not get this pleasureable feeling when with her husband.

jewgal84

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 3:16 pm

To first amother- ever went t ocheck and see if it might've been a sensory issue? Some ppl may be too quick to think the worst of their kids! I don't think it should be a common thing that kids should continue doing so- it just has to be dealt with a broader mind.

I had a camper who was almost 4, and whenever we'd go down for a nap, he stimulate himself. We talked to ppl about it and came to the conclusion that it may have to do something with his sensories. There is a specific word for it, I can't remember. He would also love it, if we would massage his shoulders, hug him etc.

Does that make him perverted, no!

Sometimes kids have more sensitive sensories then others. We concluded that we should distarct him every time he would attempt himself. He brought in his fav. stuffed animal, or we would give him something to hold, and before you knew it, withing weeks, it was over!

Amother- does your daughter have any sensitive feelings that she esp. likes other than touching her private parts. Maybe she has sensitive senses.

I am just coming as a third wheel.

At such a young age, I dont think they can grasp the concept that "it's not tsnius, or not the right thing to do"!

It is something that parents should definately not incourage or make fun of, rather distract them when doing it.

amother

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 3:28 pm

Motek---it feels good, yes. s-xuality doesn't start at 18, it starts much younger, it just needs to be directed in a sanctified way; namely to be preserved for marriage. At 2, a child does something and it feels good. Does he know it's s-xual? no....

Healthy s-xuality begins from our youth. If it feels good to the child, and he is not reprimanded for it, then he won't have "negative" feelings towards s-xuality. His feeling towards s-xuality should be the Torah attitude.

Mandy

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 3:38 pm

I just want to jump in here and point out the difference between sensuality ( which is what children have) and s-xuality (which is what adults have). Sensuality is not socially formed and is simply based on what feels good, like tickling. s-xuality is based on your culture and upbringing. A typical example is that the same two year old boy who likes to touch himself, will not get aroused if he sees a woman wearing nothing on top. Caveat - if he has been weaned recently, he may still think of that as the fridge, but nothing s-xual because children have not been taught that the female chest is an object of s-xual interest at that age yet.

My point is that criticizing a little child for touching him/herself is like yelling at them for liking being tickled. To them it makes no sense what you are saying. In terms of halacha it is not a big deal either, cause there's nothing there to waste. The only way it is valuable is in terms of chinuch, so as in all chinuch situations, the derech in which the concept is presented is the most important part of the whole thing. Yelling, punishing, embarassing will be way less effective than matter-of-fact rules.

Ozmom

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 4:55 pm

just by the way I agree with all of you that you shouldn't punish yell etc, I'm just wondering why it keeps being repeated as if someone has said you should do that.
I don't recall reading anyone suggesting it.

also I don't know about boys coz mine never did it that I have seen, but as far as girls are concerned, first of all I'm told its more common by them and second there seems to be some differences
I thought mine did it at the age of 3 - 4 but all they did was feel around, and easily got distracted and stopped. and I thought that was what it was untill I heard from some other ppl that had seen girls actually...well doing more then what I just described, so I realised that my kids hadn't been doing it but were more exploring then stimulating.
so just wanted to point out that what one might think is stimulating themselves may be nothing more then exploration, which is very normal in little kids.
I never did anything about it except very casually distracted them, without them even realising that was what I was doing. It was a very short phase and always at the same age level with each one.

Motek

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 5:17 pm

jewgal84 wrote:

To first brought in his fav. stuffed animal, or we would give him something to hold, and before you knew it, withing weeks, it was over! ... rather distract them when doing it.

exactly!

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Motek---it feels good, yes. s-xuality doesn't start at 18, it starts much younger

excuse me? did you think you were teaching me something I didn't know? Scratching Head

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Healthy s-xuality begins from our youth.

what do you mean by that? what Torah attitude is that?

mandy wrote:

children have not been taught that the female chest is an object of s-xual interest at that age yet.

(side point) taught? are you saying it needs to be taught or they'll never know?

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great point oz! odd isn't it Confused

carrot

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 5:37 pm

Motek wrote:

(side point) taught? are you saying it needs to be taught or they'll never know?

I don't think she means explicitly taught but culturally taught. Because there are cultures where the women do not cover their chests and the men are not particularly interested in seeing them.

Just like in other times and other places ankles or other body parts were considered so exciting - but now they're not.

Some cultures kiss and some cultures rub noses. Things that can be done publicly in some countries can not even be mentioned in others. All of these things are "taught".

amother

Wed, Mar 08 2006, 2:21 am

Posting anonymously is my right. And any offense taken is simply your perception.

You mentioned that he shouldn't know that it's good, so I was challenging that and saying, why not? At age 2, his sense of "s-xuality," "sensuality" or whatever you wish to call it is just about "feeling good." No consequences. So why lash at a child for something that feels good?

I guess the Egos around here are larger than life....