Nashim tzidkanios letter in Binah

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 6:31 pm

Not_in_my_town wrote:

Exactly.

I think it's time that people stop putting "rabbonim" and "rebitzins" on a pedestal, imagining everything they do to be healthy and good and Torahdig.

[...]

Just because a rebitzin shared her opinion, that doesn't make it Torah mi'Sinai nor correct across the board. It's just an opinion.

But if it someone of stature, no, I don't automatically take it as my marching orders, but I'll read it respect and give it some consideration.

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 6:34 pm

amother Hawthorn wrote:

Talking about Meaningful People and Inspiration the Nation (we just were on a different thread) this would be a great podcast: Rebbetzin Esther Reisman & Rebbetzin Myrna Weinberger, two women we can all respect.
God forbid I should suggest anyone should actually listen to them, but I'm sure they'd have a lot to say and know how to say it.
I wonder if NG & YL are here. Maybe their wives Wink

Oh, I'd go on to youtube to watch that (my phone just gets the audio)!
And re the bolded: I should hope not! Wink

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 6:35 pm

watergirl wrote:

I am bowing out of this conversation because I am getting heated, and I need the zchus of giving the benefit of the doubt as a zchus for a difficult situation at work I'm dealing with now.

I suspect that the hugs I've been getting are the "Bless your heart" type. The hug I gave this post was definitely not. Tizku l'mitzvos and may you see great peiros.

Not_in_my_town

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 6:57 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

But if it someone of stature, no, I don't automatically take it as my marching orders, but I'll read it respect and give it some consideration.

No harm in you doing that. But there's no harm in having a differing opinion either.
The question is if the letter did harm or not.
That's between the writer and Hashem.

Yes, there needs to be boundaries, but once there is a rav over a project that others deem questionable, I think it's important to zip one's lip and say, "Hey, it's not my mehalech" to themselves, but to say nothing verbally.

amother

Oldlace

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 7:09 pm

Not_in_my_town wrote:

I find it concerning that there's an attempt to cancel these singers (I'm guessing this letter was solicited, I doubt Rebbetzin Reisman is up on the latest in the Jewish music scene) when there is a genuine NEED and no viable alternative or recognition of this need offered (instead, those who need it are being shamed and made to feel as though they are doing something bad). That's why I personally am glad people are speaking up. Based on my life experiences and observations, it's a bad thing when this happens. Have we learned nothing about chinuch and what happens when young people feel stifled, over the past 20 years? I've seen too much fall out. Also the "othering" as expressed in this letter as though the ones who take sincere enjoyment in this music can't be included in the collective "Nashim tzudaniyos" being addressed.

Also, Pink Fridge I want to say, that any "hugs" you got were not from me. (I don't believe in passive aggressive hugs in any case.) I'm glad you and others are debating because it gives a chance for everything to be hashed out and new perspectives are able to be offered.

I think everyone's perspective on this issue goes back to their own personal life experience. Mine stems from the feeling stifled and guilt tripping of the 90s and the "it's not pas/it's beneath you" thought mode that was prevalent in the chinuch world then. I see now how inadequate and even damaging that was, and how those who don't have certain needs just can't relate or fathom it in others. Somehow the ones in chinuch at that time were mostly of the "can't relate" type and it bothers me to see that in many ways, that hasn't changed.

Not_in_my_town

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 7:17 pm

Yes, oldlace, I think you said it well: There are different needs.

It reminds me of what I read Nissim Black said: He was told to continue making rap music for those who needed to hear his message and would otherwise listen to negative-message rap music, but that he shouldn't sing those songs at his Shabbos tisch.

There is a time and place for every "leniency," if you view them as such. To issue a blanket statement is not wise, IMO.

amother

Hawthorn

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 7:30 pm

amother OP wrote:

You know, it's funny.
Sometimes when bad stuff goes on, people ask, all indignant, "why don't the rabbis speak up? Where are the rebbetzins??"
When they DO speak up, people criticize them for forcing their views and standards on others. They are out of touch. Who do they think they are??

So what's the deal?

It's that you believe that they should speak up about ABC, and not about DEF. They SHOULD speak up, but only about the things that you think are important to spaek about.

Thing is, they aren't taking your opinions into account. The rabbonim and rebbetzins have different values than you, and, coincidentally, they also have somewhat of a platform, or a position of respect (which I daresay, they have generally earned), which allows them to speak their truth.

Just an observation.
Carry on.

The deal is they should speak up when they agree with me and express MY opinion.
Or was that YOUR opinion?
Whatever.
They should be quiet unless they have something to say we want to hear.

amother

Oldlace

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 7:48 pm

amother OP wrote:

Like I said previously, I'm sure this letter was solicited. Do you really think Rebbetzin Reisman (she's my parents' generation, so I'm assuming she's in her 70s?) is up on the latest Jewish music entertainment? She's pretty honest in her letter that she isn't personally familiar with these singers.

The question is why she chose to respond publicly to this solicitation. And no others. Who even knows how it was represented to her? And the agenda of the people who approached her? Those are 2 big question marks in my mind.

BTW does anyone remember when some askanim approached a major RY to ban a specific concert (male singer)? Shortly after, the RY "removed" the ban saying that he hadn't had the full information and context and once he heard from many people and had a better picture he regretted the ban in the first place. My takeaways: 1) true respect for that RY 2) going forward, people in leadership positions/who have the automatic ear of the public, should understand they have a responsibility to make sure they are personally familiar with the entire matter before putting out public statements that can have major repercussions (and cancel culture is real in the frum world, it existed before it became a thing in the secular world)

amother

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 7:59 pm

amother Oldlace wrote:

You may be right. But you may be wrong as well.
You are assuming that she is responding to a solicitation. You are assuming that people had an agenda other than what's presented. You are also assuming that she didn't have all the informatuon at hand, and was only given to see a partial view. You are furthermore assuming that if she had a full view, she would not have put out the letter she did.
That's a lot of assumptions, methinks.

amother

Yarrow

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 8:04 pm

amother OP wrote:

True - but what is the more likely possibility?

A senior have awareness of this without being notified about it? A senior having context as to how it compares to what else is out there for the younger generation? A senior viewing it through the lens of the current generation versus her own generational experiences.

We all only have assumptions. But which is the more likely scenario?

amother

Oldlace

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 8:04 pm

amother OP wrote:

Considering she was honest about personally being unfamiliar with these singers, I think these are all pretty likely actually.

amother

White

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 8:12 pm

amother Hawthorn wrote:

The deal is they should speak up when they agree with me and express MY opinion.
Or was that YOUR opinion?
Whatever.
They should be quiet unless they have something to say we want to hear.

No.

When something tragic happens NOBODY wants to hear from rebbes and rebetzins about the lace tops and tznius that is causing it. Nobody wants to hear from them then or now.

amother

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 8:13 pm

amother Yarrow wrote:

This is a side point, but I just get bothered when people make assumptions that if a chashuv person came out and said something publicly (especially if its something they disagree with), then perforce it means they were manipulated somehow. I hear this all the time.

Yes, I know it happens. But there's something in that charge that is so disrespectful. It insinuates that the chashuv person was fooled or scammed, and didn't have the sense to do their proper research.

Eta. I don't think there's anything wrong with the scenario of someone bringing the matter to her attention. Nor do I think it's horrible if she views it in the context of her 70 plus years of experience. It doesn't automatically mean she is out of touch. Often, these older people are far more in touch than the younger, with-it crowd. I'm not saying this is the case here specifically, I don't know this rebbetzin. But I do know that her husband is considered to be a very respected talmid chochom and baal eitza, who is very much in touch with what goes on today.

amother

Seablue

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 8:14 pm

amother Oldlace wrote:

She is actually in her 60s and not as out of touch with reality as people want to make her sound. It is sad how there is no more respect for "real" rabonim and rebitzens anymore. Instead we have to he inspired from the ladies on Instagram. You don't have to listen to what she is saying...take it or leave it....but no need for all the derogatory things that are being written about her either. Her and her husband do more for klal Yisrael than many can imagine. Do we not listen to rabbis anymore because they are too old? In any case this whole thing was blown out of proportion. She didn't say not to listen to female singers she was questioning how they plan on bringing the geulah as they claim through singing on YouTube and instagram....I personally have no feelings either way I just think that some posts here come across as very disrespectful.

amother

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 8:18 pm

amother Seablue wrote:

Thank you. Very well said.

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 8:18 pm

Not_in_my_town wrote:

Did the ad mention Rabbi Weinberger?
Regardless, we can disagree without being disagreeable or disparaging.

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 8:20 pm

amother Oldlace wrote:

Probably more like early 60s.
And I agree with your takeaways, though not sure where they fit in to this current situation.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Thu, Oct 20 2022, 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Yarrow

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 8:20 pm

amother OP wrote:

Problem is that it is often quite true. How many Rabbonim & Rebetzin have been on the internet, experienced workplace concerns, listened to the music or viewed shows that they've banned, and so on? It all comes from things that are told to them. So while it's obviously not the Rabbonim & Rebetzin's agenda to misrepresent stuff, they're depended on the people around them. And very often it is the case, that those people have personal agendas and want their standards to be the norm.

There is the concept about a leader being in the trenches to truly understand his people's needs. Our Rabbonim & Rebetzins are quite far removed from our trenches, and live in their own little bubble. (Of course, it doesn't apply to all , but it sure does apply to many.) So the longer that goes on, the more out of touch they become. And that's the problem we're dealing with. Our leaders are living in their own little bubble of the previous century, but we the people are living in the current century.