Nashim tzidkanios letter in Binah

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 9:44 am

watergirl wrote:

Right.

Also, taking away something (for those who are part of the circles who hold by this rebbitzen) from someone without offering a replacement is begging for them to leave all together.

This reminds me of when my step-kids were young and LOOOOOVED the Moshav Band and a few other bands that by no coincidences, their father (my husband) likes. Their mother only wanted music we call "Shiny Shoe" music - you know the type, where the male singer wears shiny shoes... at the time it was Avraham Fried and few others. She went to her rav asking if she should allow the kids to listen to the music they liked - all frum male singers. He said no, there is no Yirei Shamayim in that music. I'm not sure how he even could claim to know what these singers hold in their hearts... but whatever. Very shortly thereafter, all but one of the kids went to non-Jewish music all together. The last one continued to listen to this kind of music in secret. Today, the one who continued to listen to the music is very frum and learning in the mir. The others are not frum in any way.

You have a very important point.
You can't say no without saying yes to something, and the occasional entertainment outings aren't the same as having something to listen to on demand. (Records, 8 tracks, tapes, CDs... everyone owned/owns them)

Here's a point that I'm hesitant to make. Binah/Hamodia have made very strong statements about social networking, internet, smartphones, etc. I would NOT say the rebbetzin is pandering to an audience, chas v'sholom. But she is speaking to an audience who largely share these values. (Confession: I subscribe to the magazines. I don't have the exact same mehalech.) She's simply being mechazek people on the way that they want to go and that has served them well and that can continue to do so.

I'm hesitant to make this point because I have no idea how it might metastasize.

amother

Oldlace

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 10:29 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I get Binah too even if I'm not necessarily their target audience. But. Their main audience probably aren't the bulk of these singers' listeners anyway. So it was sort of silly to lecture pple who aren't into these singers anyway. Which is like the time in my BY camp that a rabbi was literally screaming at us girls about wearing long dangle earrings that nobody actually was wearing. This was in camp Bnos..... A well known charismatic speaker that I was instantly put off by because of that...

Not_in_my_town

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 10:36 am

amother Oldlace wrote:

Why assume people don't know who she is? Or label those of us who disagree with her approach as lazy thinkers or not intellectual.

I'm quite aware, I know who's who in the yeshiva (Agudah) world. I certainly know who her husband is. I'm not just a basher. I'm just tired of this old, worn out approach that guilts people. It's not productive and it disenfranchises people. It's not the 1990s anymore.

Exactly.

I think it's time that people stop putting "rabbonim" and "rebitzins" on a pedestal, imagining everything they do to be healthy and good and Torahdig.

There are very few tzadikim in this world, and most rabbonim and rebitzins are NOT. They are just people who have earned a title, maybe even justifiably because they do more for the community than others and maybe they've learned more. But that doesn't mean that everything they do is pure, perfect, and in line with the Torah. It means that -- hopefully -- they are sincere, but they are still human and they can still have wrong ideas.

Yes, we have to have respect for people who've learned more and we have to respect the decision of someone whom we have asked a shaila of... but that doesn't mean that the title of Rebitzin or Rav makes them magically perfect and balanced.

I've had a deep look into the world of chashuve people, and at the end of the day, the average rebitzin and rav is struggling with their own issues of trauma, religious OCD, unbalanced thinking, or whatnot.

It's not bashing. It's reality.

Just because a rebitzin shared her opinion, that doesn't make it Torah mi'Sinai nor correct across the board. It's just an opinion.

amother

Olive

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 10:45 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Here's a point that I'm hesitant to make. Binah/Hamodia have made very strong statements about social networking, internet, smartphones, etc. I would NOT say the rebbetzin is pandering to an audience, chas v'sholom. But she is speaking to an audience who largely share these values. (Confession: I subscribe to the magazines. I don't have the exact same mehalech.) She's simply being mechazek people on the way that they want to go and that has served them well and that can continue to do so.

I'm hesitant to make this point because I have no idea how it might metastasize.

I don't know about that. I think she knows that the Binah audience includes many women who consider these videos kosher entertainment for girls and women. I am not part of the Binah-values crowd, but my daughters go to a school with BY hashkafos. My girls heard their first songs from these singers at school, not at home. Another poster on page 3 said that "a BY school in a certain community hired two of these singers to do a concert as a fundraiser."

I believe the author is hoping to eliminate any local variation and essentially "cancel" these singers in any school that considers itself BY or BY-type, such that schools and camps will be too afraid to play their music, much less invite them.

If she wanted to just slam-dunk pander, she'd be condemning Women of the Wall or some such.

amother

Hawthorn

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 10:55 am

PinkFridge wrote:

That was the perfect word PF.
Metastasize.
Some of the comments here are way out of line.
We've had threads shut down for less, but going in a different direction IYKWIM.
As always, it depends whose ox is being gored.

watergirl

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 11:21 am

PinkFridge wrote:

If she is being mechazek people on the way they want to go, it should have been done without publicly naming the people she disagrees with.

chestnut

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 11:26 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Good point. What will happen when girls in such families start listening to these singers? Will that be equated to listening to non Jewish singers? What if some girls are in the choir that performs with these singers and are enjoying it? Will they be looked at as less frum?
I think all too often people, especially the older generation, think in very black and white terms and that's quite dangerous.

amother

Hawthorn

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 11:54 am

watergirl wrote:

If she is being mechazek people on the way they want to go, it should have been done without publicly naming the people she disagrees with.

The problem is the people she disagrees with are not exactly operating privately.
When people put themselves out there like that, responses, both positive and negative, are part of the territory.
It might have been just a bit of bad advertising but going out and saying let’s bring the geulah and calling themselves nashim tzidkaniyos doesn’t invite a discreetly murmured reply.

amother

Gardenia

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 12:32 pm

I like to watch women singers as next as the next person, but I need to tell ya'all a little about Reb Reisman, in an attempt to tone done some of the outrage. This woman is a tsadekes in the true sense of the word. She has a heart of gold, takes care of many people in many capacities. Has an open home and is a willing and available listening ear to many. She learns with many women from all spectrums of religiosity.
She also is not extreme in any way. She is a very live and let live kind of person. If she felt the need to write this letter, you can be 100% sure that it was done from a place of deep thought and caring for all involved.
I can imagine that seeing her students and community members so inspired from the nekadesh event and subsequent kabalos that many people made had an influence on attempting to keep that ruach and momentum going.
Debating concepts is always different than taking on the people behind them. Let's keep this about ideas and sorting what is good and holy about women singers and what we can perhaps do without.

amother

Hawthorn

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 12:41 pm

mommyisbest wrote:

Just pointing out that the CD did have daas torah behind it: It was encouraged by R Moshe Weinberger.

That said, it is not geared for the Lakewood Yeshivish crowd. It was geared to the five towns type crowd, for their daughters to have fun Jewish music for them to listen to.

Talking about Meaningful People and Inspiration the Nation (we just were on a different thread) this would be a great podcast: Rebbetzin Esther Reisman & Rebbetzin Myrna Weinberger, two women we can all respect.
God forbid I should suggest anyone should actually listen to them, but I'm sure they'd have a lot to say and know how to say it.
I wonder if NG & YL are here. Maybe their wives Wink

DVOM

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 12:59 pm

amother Gardenia wrote:

Ideally I agree with you.

But she called out very specific people, not ideas and ideals.

Do we need to be more circumspect in our discussion than she was?

So distressing to have a woman who should be a role model behave this way. She is pretty nasty in her evaluation of these women and their motives. She calls them shallow, egotistical and immodest. Not classy. Not nice.

I would also like to keep the tone of this conversation respectful, but understand the ire. I'd argue that Reb. R. dragged it into the dirt first.

amother

Oldlace

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 1:15 pm

I don't think it's disrespectful to point out that some rabbanim/rebbetzins are a bit behind the times when it comes to certain societal issues. This approach, the way its worded, the guilt it is trying to induce is very 1990s. It worked then (at least on the surface). It doesn't anymore. Sometimes people are insulated in a "leadership bubble" and they simply don't have their finger on the pulse of frum society anymore.

amother

NeonBlue

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 4:11 pm

I guess the clip produced for abirei hatorah that was posted on instagram and youtube is also a collosal scandal. She should have included that in the letter since holy nashim tzidkanios might be lured into the dark crevices of the www by watching it.
Or perhaps it was sold to the holy woman of lakewood on floppy disks...
Crazy.

amother

Mintcream

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 5:20 pm

You all need to relax. If you don’t get the Binah the letter wasn’t meant for you. Don’t worry about other people feeling it was wrong.

If you don’t live in Lakewood you don’t need feel all self righteous about women not being shown on a video. The Kollel wives are more than fine with it.

See editor note in the Mishpacha where she bemoans this problem of people speaking up to “save others”. Many people who are not Mishpacha’s subscribers get outraged when a Good Samaritan points out something that won’t jive well with a different community. If you don’t subscribe you don’t get to complain about them catering to their audience.

We all have different shittos. Let everyone keep to their own standard without your outrage.

amother

Yarrow

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 5:33 pm

amother Mintcream wrote:

Plenty Good Samaritans calling out their own communities here.

Can I turn the tables? Why is it that people who come to the defense of a particular practice focus only on the outsiders and purposely ignore the voices of the insiders?

I know it may be hard to believe that insiders are not pleased with the status quo. Especially as you rarely hear that during your interactions. But you need to recognize that people are hesitant to speak up IRL because fear of backlash. So they pretend all is nice and rosy and put up a front. But when they see a safe space and can be anonymous, they let their true voices be heard.

Maybe its time to really listen to them instead of continuously swatting them away. Maybe that would help with a lot of the issues our kids are now facing.

amother

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 6:12 pm

You know, it's funny.
Sometimes when bad stuff goes on, people ask, all indignant, "why don't the rabbis speak up? Where are the rebbetzins??"
When they DO speak up, people criticize them for forcing their views and standards on others. They are out of touch. Who do they think they are??

So what's the deal?

It's that you believe that they should speak up about ABC, and not about DEF. They SHOULD speak up, but only about the things that you think are important to spaek about.

Thing is, they aren't taking your opinions into account. The rabbonim and rebbetzins have different values than you, and, coincidentally, they also have somewhat of a platform, or a position of respect (which I daresay, they have generally earned), which allows them to speak their truth.

Just an observation.
Carry on.

amother

Yarrow

Thu, Oct 20 2022, 6:26 pm

amother OP wrote:

We ask them to speak up about social issues, about our schooling issues, about the financial issues that's plaguing our communities, about the messed up shiddich system, yet they're very quiet about those.

Interesting.