Off-the-derech children

amother

Wed, Jun 11 2008, 12:55 pm

I also know this is painful.

My DH comes from a family of 5 and he's the only one who is frum. They all were growing up. That's a bad statistic. And his grandfather was a talmid chochom who wrote sefarim.

However, although my in-laws don't talk about it, and I am sure they have pain and maybe regrets, they deserve a lot of credit. All 5 of their children are good, honest, kind people. They are good parents. They are respectable and love Israel. And no matter what, my in-laws love them unconditionally and vice versa. I respect that.

shalhevet

Wed, Jun 11 2008, 1:19 pm

micfri wrote:

What exactly did I say that you took to be a criticism? And the fact that you are implying that I don't believe fully in Hashem isn't anything I'm going to dignify with a response.

Who said anything about placing blame? Haven't you ever made a decision for or about your kids that you thought at the time was the best decision and realized afterwards that maybe it wasn't? Come on - we all have. It doesn't make us bad parents - but hopefully it makes us wiser.

I agree with micfri. Saying a child going off the derech is a gezeira mishamayim is ridiculous. But that has nothing to do with apportioning blame. And saying how come it happened to only one/ some children in a family, and not to others, is no proof either. Maybe the excellent chinuch the parents gave wasn't suitable for this particular child? Maybe there was a personality clash with either/ both parents? Maybe the problem was nothing to do with the home, but originated with a teacher/ rebbe or friends? Maybe there was a trauma totally beyond everyone's control (such as long-term sickness in the family)? I once heard that the reason Esav turned out the way he did, was because he received the same chinuch as Yaakov and it simply wasn't suitable for him.

And I agree that I hope very much that this forum isn't closed, because I feel everyone can benefit and learn a lot from it.

hila

Wed, Jun 11 2008, 2:13 pm

BH my children are not off the derech.
And I think that we have to becareful how we "label" our kids.

If they are not following our path that we would have chose, does that make the, "off the derech" ?

I see parents lamenting what their childrena re doing, when they themselves chose a different derch from their own parents.

If a chassidish boy choses to become a MO or mitnaged is of off the derech ?

If he wants to study medicine - is he off the derech ?

If a child of stark litvish wants to go to the army and then have a profession - is he off the derech ?

If a child is a wonderful caring human, who does ltos of chesed, but does not dave 3 times a day - is he off too ?

Be careful of rejecting a slightly different kind of person from you. Because that is sure way to push someone so far "off the derech" that he cant even see the derech to come back to.

Not only dont throw these kids out by shutting the door, but also dont shame them or reject them.

BeH all those who are now lost will find their way back soon. And the best way to do that is to show them the beauty of the derech.

su7kids

Wed, Jun 11 2008, 4:21 pm

I think that it is important o know that when I talk about my family's situation, I'm trying to learn and not blame myself, but if I can find out where I did, IF I DID, go wrong, or may have done things differently, then maybe someone can learn from me. It is NOT a blame issue and to say it is min hashamayim, all I can say is, when I gave birth to my children, after 9 months of a pregnancy, I didn't not say "ok, which one is not going to be the way I would wish them to be?"

I intended for everyone of my children to be wonderful human beings and to embrace yiddishkeit the way I did.

As a BT, I also realized that I CHOSE this way of life and brought my kids up this way, without much guidance, and am grateful for those who chose to follow the path we remained on. For the others, I pray that he will find his own path.

My parents didn't reject me when I became frum, and therefore I'm not rejecting my child while he's finding his own way in life.

But to bash other parents and give these categorical statements which we really have no proof of, is not helpful.

Saying something is min hashamayim, is kind of the attitude Nachshon ben Aminidav was going against when he walked into the water after Moshe Rabbeinu told the Yidden to do it, and everyone said, "impossible" and he said, maybe not. let me try and see what happens.

It may look one way, but Hashem takes over where you can't anymore.

At least that's my belief.

amother

Wed, Jun 11 2008, 4:29 pm

my sister has slowly slipped away from the derech hatorah. my mother is getting guidance from people who specialize in kiruv. my issue is that my daughter who is 5 idolizes this sister. when my sister asked me what I'm going to tell her, I didn't know what to say. I told her that it never crossed my mind to teach my kids that going off the derech is an option & I have no intention of saying anything. but now I have the problem of either offending my sister by telling my sister that she can only see my kids dressed appropriately (my daughter is very "into" tznius this year. she asks me why her younger sister can wear short sleeves & she can't) & I really don't want to push her away, or compromising on my standards of chinuch (& I'm not willing to teach her that everything is "okay"). I hope this forum will be open for other people too not just parents. those of us with other relatives off the derech, need the chizuk too.

amother

Wed, Jun 11 2008, 4:37 pm

su7kids wrote:

if your sister values the relationship with her niece, would she consider dressing the part when she comes to your home, and keeping with your standards around your daughter? Of course, not in your house, you have no control, but surely you can ask her in your own home?

she doesn't come to my house b/c she doesn't get along with dh. he is not so tolerant & doesn't want my kids to see her at all. I had to practically promise him that she would be wearing a skirt & she would only see them supervised (without her knowing of course) & I don't know how to do this. & I don't think it's beneficial for either my sister or my daughter to be cut off from each other.

ChossidMom

Thu, Jun 12 2008, 8:56 am

amother wrote:

I would. I actually came here because I am having a very hard time loving my child. I know it doesn't sound very motherly to say that. But how is it possible to love a child who rejects everything that is important to you? No matter how many times you ask for them to at least show some respect for you and your home, and they don't care.

My child is leaving in a few days, and I am counting the days. I can't wait, as I find this child to be a bad influence on the other kids. It sound terrible, and I feel horrible for saying and thinking it. I don't understand how I failed so miserably.

Amother - I hear you. I have a very good friend who has a beautiful family. One of their sons is ADHD (actually more than one). He is now about 15 or 16, still living at home but going to a school here in Israel which isn't exactly too religious because it's a special framework with kids like him. To make a long story short, this Chassidish family now has this boy at home who is making their lives a living h*ll and having a terrible influence on his siblings. His mother is at the breaking point where she just wants him OUT. It is absolutely heartbreaking.

Please don't feel horrible. You haven't failed. VERY OFTEN it IS a gezeirah. I've seen it over and over and over. In both Charedi and modern families. You give your kids wonderful educations. You instill them with all of your great values and one "takes a detour" in their Yiddishkeit. I have seen many, many times where the kid comes back. This coming week I'm BE"H going to the wedding of one such boy who took quite a detour and is now marrying a lovely, frum girl. A few months ago I was at another wedding like this and if you would see this guy you wouldn't believe it. He was a real "bum" at 15. Today, at 27 he is charismatic and learned and special and does amazing kiruv work. There is hope!

Never lose hope and never stop davening.

BTW, for those who insist that it isn't a gezeirah I would like to add a story of my own. When I was first married we had a 16 year old nephew of my husband living with us because he was taking his own detour from Yiddishkeit. he was with us for maybe half a year. At some point I could see that we weren't getting anywhere with him and I asked my rav - Rav Bulman zt"l what to do with him. We were on the verge of kicking him out of our house. Basically, the rav said that sometimes it is pashut a gezeirah mishamayim and there is nothing you can do. P.S. the boy wound up leaving of his own will before I had the chance to boot him out. Sadly, this boy did become frum and get married, only to get divorced and leave frumkeit. But he is NOT the norm. Alot of this happened because of his "alternate" lifestyle (vehamevin yavin). He was apparently abused as a child (not by family) and is pretty messed up now as a result. This is NOT the norm. My point here is just what I was told by Rav Bulman.

freidasima

Thu, Jun 12 2008, 9:11 am

Chossidmom, Rav Bulman was a zaddik, I have read much about him. And he was a smart man. There are kids where it really is a gezeira.
And who knows why...maybe to do good somewhere else, at a different ime, at a different place, in a way that they could only do if they were no longer "on the derekh" as we know it.
What do you say about a child who wakes up one morning, still as a child, from a frum home, from a totally frum upbringing, with frum brothers and sisters, who decides that there is no G-d. Whatever you show him, whatever you say to him, he won't accept it intellectually and he doesn't seem to have the emotional need for a supreme being either. It's not taivah to do an aveira, in fact for years he keeps to the straight and narrow but you know that the minute he is out of school his kipa is coming off. And it does. This child will go to shul with his father and will never do anything mechalel shabbos or not kosher at home...but who knows what they do outside...they will always put on a kipa for meals at home, but not in their room. They are loving, polite, have had long talks with grandparents all of whom are frum and all of whom try to put him right...and whom he respects tremendously...but he remains as he is. Of course he doesn't daven every day, make brochos, wear tzitzis anymore...and his parents know enough not to push it...at least he still goes to shul on shabbos with his father when he is home and comes to the shabbos meal when he is home with a kipa.

But by all standards he is on the way to being "off the derekh". Or is already there. What did his parents do wrong? He was brought up the same way as his many frum brothers and sisters (this is a real case that I know). He is really smart. No learning disabilities. Maybe not happy in school when he was there because he didn't have friends. But he was always a loner and his decisions about the Ribono Shel Olam came at a time that he still had friends...

So go know.
I know more than one case like this. Not secular letaivo (of doing an aveiro, in fact these kids don't really do too many aveiros while they are home as they don't have a chance and they have no taivoh for it) but they don't keep too many mitzvos of bein odom lamokom.

amother

Thu, Jun 12 2008, 10:04 am

Quote:

one definite rule: never lock your doors if u're kids arent in yet, let them know the door is always open!!!

When did we become korbanos too Crying

I will not let one child undo all the hard work that both my husband and myself have invested into the others. The child I am referring to is an older teen round the 18yr mark. Very charismatic and witty though yiras shomayim has fallen by the wayside since we sent him to Yeshiva overseas a few years ago.
Yes our doors are open and we have not given up with this child BUT it's conditional I will not let swearing or no regard for family values enter my home unless he confines it to his daled amos. Why should we, what message does it send to our other kids who are watching us.

Besides My husband is a Rabbi and that puts us into an even more problematic situation, we encourage people to become more frum not less even if it means our own son. Also why do I have to watch my husband suffer and blood pressure rise my husband is who I married, not my son Crying

pacifier

Thu, Jun 12 2008, 10:05 am

zufriedene wrote:

My son said "THe hand that slapped my face and insulted me BRabim is now paralyzed, "I couldnt believe the intensity that emerged after 15 years??? pls no bashing . THis is the experience of our children sometimes that turns them away from us, from tora and the derech altogether, they r suffering and we really dont know what to do to ease the pain/ we're involved in protecting the siblings, and maybe they dont even share with us whats happening??

this shows that parents are not always guilty, even though sometimes a child can go off because of too much strictness and un-understanding from their parents. unfortunately, not all parents know how to show love and acceptation to their kids. most people I know off who rejected tora and mitsvot did so because their self confidence was consciously destroyed by school and sometimes parents.(let's say if a parent punish a child and the child tries to explain his point of view or that he's not guilty and the parent doesn't want to listen and punish more because of chutspa!!!)

I think the most we can do for our children is make sure they are happy, self confident, and teach them that sometimes people can be wrong but one can sometimes find excuse for them.

still how does one react if a child/teenager comes back from school and says his rav, well known talmid chacham slapped him!!!!??? I think our reaction in such a case will affect more our child than the aveira the rebbe did.

ChossidMom

Thu, Jun 12 2008, 10:29 am

zufriedene wrote:

T My sons rosh yeshuva had a stroke this shabus, I know this may sound callous, and I hope ppl can relate to this as an experience of an adolescent, I didnt justify but it took me a mnute to recapture my senses. My son said "THe hand that slapped my face and insulted me BRabim is now paralyzed, "I couldnt believe the intensity that emerged after 15 years??? pls no bashing . THis is the experience of our children sometimes that turns them away from us, from tora and the derech altogether, they r suffering and we really dont know what to do to ease the pain/ we're involved in protecting the siblings, and maybe they dont even share with us whats happening?? What about other variety of abuses they dont dare share with us??
Lets make this forum a place where we can share pain, try to ease it and understand our children If even one child will be saved from going off the derech, DAYENU!!

Oy Zufriedne. That is one of the most tragic things I've ever heard. I am not surprised that your son reacted that way and I can't imagine anyone who reads this bashing. That rebbe did a terrible, terrible thing. And if all the rebbes that slap could only see the "fruits" of their "labor" maybe they would use more of a "yemin mekarevet". I'm crying for what your son experienced. (And just between us, I do believe that there is Divine Retribution in this life. Something similar happened in my family - where a rav did something TERRIBLE. His daughter died while he was alive and he died a horrible death. I'm not saying it was because of what he did, but lemme tell you - the thought crossed my mind)