WWYD supporting learning saga - we just found out

amother

Brown

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 10:26 am

amother OP wrote:

A quick response ds dated hardworking girls from affluent families who had the ability on their own to fully support and girls who's parents promised full support from the get go!

In my mind I thought I was helping him not have parnassa problems by only looking into girls from certain families... which I learned never assume and never trust references if they say the families generous or willing to help.

The sad part is I've asked twice to make the wedding simple and save some of it for the couple to live on but they're refusing and want to keep up appearances keeping their image while they should tone things down and give the couple the money so he can learn Can't Believe It

Some parents are against support on principle, some parents will only support as much as other side is giving.

Chayalle

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 10:30 am

amother OP wrote:

OP, I'm saying this gently, but it's expected by them to make a wedding for their daughter that is similar to what the people in their circles do. It's not necessarily expected by them to support a SIL in learning (as it seems they would prefer someone who will work) so they are doing things according to THEIR values, not yours. In a sense, it's unfair to expect them to do things your (or the couple's) way if this is not their value.

I do know people who are well-to-do (I have siblings like that) and make simpler affairs and support their daughters and SIL's in Kollel, but these are not your mechutanim's values. You need to accept that, because it's likely to keep coming up in many areas.

taketwo

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 10:32 am

amother OP wrote:

What kind of an example are you setting for your son that money is your top priority? If your son and you are serious about learning, and all that learning entails, why would $ be the deciding factor in your shidduchim? By only picking affluent people you are devaluing learning for the sake of learning.

Last edited by taketwo on Thu, Nov 10 2022, 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total

Bnei Berak 10

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 10:32 am

amother OP wrote:

Your DH and your son really urgently need expertise help NOW to solve this. Today.

icedcoffee

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 10:33 am

amother OP wrote:

The sad part is I've asked twice to make the wedding simple and save some of it for the couple to live on but they're refusing and want to keep up appearances keeping their image while they should tone things down and give the couple the money so he can learn Can't Believe It

LWMO so this is not my world, but I really have to chime in here. It's so easy to spend other people's money. You have no right to say they should do this or that with their savings. Did they tell you "sorry buddy, we need to keep up our fancy image so people will think we're rich" or are you assigning them that motive? Some people save for chuppah since birth because they want to provide their child with a certain type of wedding, and that's their right. You can argue that isn't your value system or it isn't worth the money, but that's what they've put their money aside for, so that's that.

Agreed with those who say you need to stop resenting and blaming this family when this whole situation is entirely based on your assumptions. Why would you base all of this on references saying they're generous? That can mean anything, such as providing a beautiful lavish wedding. It truly does seem like the kallah is the one who was taken for a ride here.

chestnut

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 10:34 am

amother OP wrote:

Please realize it's not their priority to give them the money for more years of learning. They want and can afford a fancy wedding.

amother

Brickred

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 10:35 am

amother OP wrote:

[b]

OP I would get off imamother now and call a meeting this eve with choson
, kallah, mechutobim.
go thru whos contributing what and mthly expenses. let the couple see what leftover there will be if any, each mth.
If girls side is unhappy I wld offer to contribute minimal to the wedding (they can make their fancy Weddibg) and say you are giving x amount per mth extra to couple Instead (of using it for wedding)
I would also speak to your rav or boys rav first before the meeting for further guidance.
I would prewarn mechutonim meeting is about "budgeting"

keym

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 10:36 am

Chayalle wrote:

I agree with you.
However, unfortunately Im afraid that I see this marriage as quite challenged unless some serious communication happens.
Fast forward 5 years, I can see a wife who got her SAHM dream but is resentful that she's having to cut corners to make that work. (Like hand-me-downs, no vacations, minimal cleaning help).
I can see a husband who's resentful of sacrificing his learning dream and yet still feeling unappreciated that he can't give his wife what she needs.

This is not about kollel support. They need to be on the same page hashkafically and financially or the marriage will be a disaster

amother

Daphne

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 10:36 am

amother Calendula wrote:

I dont know Lakewood at all. Are you saying one cannot walk to do grocery shopping? Grocery stores are more than a 10 minute walk from where the apartments are?

You can do grocery shopping. But if you have any kind of appointment you need a car to get there. If you're pregnant or have little kids that can be pretty often.

Also it's socially accepted to have a car. What if her friends are getting together and she's the only one who needs help getting there. You need to have the sort of personality that doesnt mind not having what nearly everyone else does.

amother

Cyan

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 10:38 am

I know that people keep saying that they are engaged and engaged is serious. But being married and getting divorced is much more serious. I'm not advocating if I don't go through with it but it sounds like there needs to be more discussions. Unfortunately I see so many people okay not so many but I see some that get engaged quickly and get divorced relatively quickly. In fact I was just at a simcha and was speaking to two acquaintances who I've known for many years and both of them had children that were married for a short time and divorce. These are extremely charedi people in Israel who did a lot of checking out. They're obviously heartbroken that their children had to go through this but are happy that their kids are not in a marriage that isn't suitable for them. So I think that they really need to have some hard conversations to decide what to do for the future. They both need to go into it with her eyes wide open what will happen. Because it sounds like your son wanted to learn and that is not really going to happen very long term. Especially if she's not going to work I don't see how it can happen for even a year.

Chayalle

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 10:39 am

amother Daphne wrote:

And in some areas, if you live within walking distance of grocery shopping, you are going to pay the cost of that in higher rent costs. Some save money by living farther out with a car.

chestnut

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 10:44 am

taketwo wrote:

To be fair, OP is the product of this society. All girls sound similar on the paper, might as well choose the ones with richer parents, so the son lives and learns comfortably. She's just following the trend.

amother

Petunia

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 10:45 am

amother OP wrote:

Are they expecting you to make your part of the wedding up to their standards? Meaning they want a five man band and you only want a keyboard player?

I know a couple where the parents kept mentioning their money implying they would help with support. Once engaged they said no support. But then they also wanted a lavish wedding and wanted the boys side to match what they were spending. They said either flops or split in half. But for flops they were dictating a five piece band and singer, a full bar… The girl’s side knew the boys side were very tight and were up front they couldn’t do that. But because it was all verbal and not in writing they went against their word right before the wedding.

The first few years were very rocky for the couple. BH they were able to work it out eventually.

Both sides need to sit down and put everything in writing, starting with a budget for the couple (how will they make it work financially in the short term and long term), and then moving on to a budget for the wedding and setting the couple up.

amother

Calendula

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 10:52 am

amother Daphne wrote:

Appointments are hopefully not anywhere near a daily occurrence. And they currently have no kids! The money saved by not having a car is huge. And the bolded is so disturbing that I will only say that if the couple cannot get beyond that, then they are not ready for the "learning lifestyle".

Chayalle

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:00 am

amother Calendula wrote:

I don't know which circles you are from, but I'll say this as someone who lived pretty simply for 20+ years self-supporting a husband in Kollel. I didn't have a car for the first 6 months of marriage, and it was HARD. That's one area where, given today's lifestyle, I would not recommend a couple cut corners. (and as you can see we didn't manage very long, and this was 25 years ago. and the only reason it worked that long is I was at my job - with public transportation - for most of the day. And even then, it wasn't working.)

The exception would be if they live in a community where transportation is very easy. EY comes to mind.

Please do not expect a couple to manage living in Lakewood without a car.

(I'm not addressing Chassidim).

Aurora

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:03 am

I just think that it's better to break the engagement than the marriage. And going into marriage without discussing something that affects both their lives, and is making one feel betrayed even before the wedding is not going to help make this marriage work.

As other posters above have mentioned, I think it would be good for everyone to sit down and have a long talk about what you all expect.

And if your son truly wants to be supported, then he needs to accept that he either needs to marry this woman as who she is, or find another partner.

keym

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:06 am

Chayalle wrote:

I agree.
Practically in Lakewood, if you live within a 15 minute walk from yeshiva, the groceries are either quite expensive or don't offer delivery. And rent is really really not cheap.
Once you move further from BMG walkable to groceries that offer deliveries, to other necessities, then you're not walkable to yeshiva.
1 car for a kollel couple in Lakewood is pretty necessary.

amother

Aster

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:07 am

Chayalle wrote:

Once you have children, it's hard to manage the kollel lifestyle in Lakewood with just one car unless you live right near BMG (in which case the husband can walk to yeshiva and do playgroup dropoffs and pickups by foot.) And then rent is a premium. I think it would be almost impossible to manage without a car at all. Lakewood is not designed for carless families.