WWYD supporting learning saga - we just found out

amother

Chartreuse

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 6:44 pm

amother OP wrote:

Let's say she doesn't have a full-time job or earning nearly enough to pay rent, car gas ... they still need help... she knew he was learning and she said that's what she wants if she was able to work and they could live decently on her salary we wouldn't have this issue.

Then the ball is in her court. Is she willing to get a full time job?
I am curious what sort of circles you move in? I know a lot of kollel couples (including siblings) and this was always something that was discussed checked into before dating. If the girl didn't have a full time job, then the question was, are her parents willing/able to help out, etc.

TBH in this day and age just about every girl I know who is looking for a guy in yeshiva is expecting to be the breadwinner at least to start off with. I don't know anybody who got married with the plan to be on programs (that may have happened as it was needed but it wasn't THE plan prior).

chestnut

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 6:45 pm

amother Quince wrote:

I don't understand why they need "support". One paycheck is enough to cover expenses for a young couple. (My husband learned for the first year of marriage and we managed just fine on my paycheck). So what? She'll be living paycheck to paycheck? That's what kollel life is all about. Wanting the best of both worlds is immature and entitled.

That depends on where they live and her job. I don't know too many 19-21 y olds newly married girls whose salaries are enough to cover rent, utilities, food, and a car.

amother

Stoneblue

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 6:46 pm

agreer wrote:

Let them get married and learn the hard way that life costs money.

Either they will figure it out together, which IS the IDEAL, or they won't, and she'll go to her parents for help.

If you can't afford to help him, you shouldn't.

BUT... it is the husband's obligation to provide for his wife, not his parents or her parents, and your son should know that.

If he won't give up learning and she wants him to learn, she will either start living simply on the government stipends or get a job.

It is not your problem. You need to tell that to your son, in a calm and loving way, that you can't afford to help right now, and that he does have options.

Mazel tov.

And why should tax dollars support someone when the wife doesn’t want to work. I can’t imagine people would actually support their money being used if they knew people deliberately chose not to even make an effort to support themselves.

amother

Chocolate

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 6:52 pm

amother OP wrote:

We assumed the girls side would offer much more support for some reason they're not and my son's not sure what to do and begging us to help him yes they're engaged so no turning back Can't Believe It

It should have been discussed but we assumed that bc they're very well off they'd be generous- it's not always the case and she's not going to know the first thing about penny pinching and saving.. I feel so stupid and annoyed 😒 we're planning on getting them on govt programs but I'm concerned she's used to a certain standard of living - even if she says she's fine living simply 🙃

Are there government programs for people in kollel? I never knew the American government had a budget fund for people who choose to not work and study Torah

amother

Stoneblue

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 6:54 pm

amother Chocolate wrote:

Are there government programs for people in kollel? I never knew the American government had a budget fund for people who choose to not work and study Torah

I assume food stamps and Medicaid. Theoretically Section 8 but unlikely they would find any housing that way.

amother

Thistle

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 6:56 pm

When we got married, my husband was working part-time as a math teacher in a yeshiva while I was still in school (which was paid for, so we had some help). He paid for rent, food, car, etc, until I got a job as well.
It's definitely doable, even as someone who doesn't belong to that lifestyle- one in school is the same as the husband learning Wink

Notsobusy

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 7:00 pm

amother Chocolate wrote:

Are there government programs for people in kollel? I never knew the American government had a budget fund for people who choose to not work and study Torah

Actually, the US goverment has a huge budget for people who choose not to work and they don't usually ask if you're planning to sit on the street corner, spend your time high, or what you're going to be doing instead of working.

amother

Stoneblue

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 7:00 pm

amother Thistle wrote:

It is accepted that many students lead a frugal student life style and hobble together a living based on earnings from jobs, loans and some help from parents. Of course the key difference is that there is a goal at the end of the tunnel and so the student poverty comes to an end when the education results in a better paying job and more secure economic future.

Most students expect to live frugally for a limited period of time and generally also don’t have children or incur other expenses. Simple hand me down furniture for example.

amother

Chocolate

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 7:02 pm

amother Stoneblue wrote:

I assume food stamps and Medicaid. Theoretically Section 8 but unlikely they would find any housing that way.

Do you think it's ok to use money that is meant for people living below the poverty line in order to follow a dream of learning?
I don't get it.

amother

Begonia

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 7:04 pm

Tell the couple that you’re offering $1500 a month and that’s it. Or whatever it is. They’re old enough to get married and start producing the babies, they’re old enough to make a budget.

Your son should also be prepared to stop learning sooner than he expected. Maybe he has to let go of a dream to learn for x amount of years in order to marry her.

I hear you, OP. My brother married someone who was from a rich city in a huge huge house with a mom that was dripping in jewelry. And they got basically nothing. You never know if people are cash poor from the outside. My parents didn’t have any expectations and were very upfront about what they can give and what they can’t. My sister in law, despite living a nice life is way more frugal than the rest of us who grew up in a lower income household. Your DIL might surprise you.

amother

Thistle

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 7:04 pm

amother Stoneblue wrote:

Presumably, she'll get a better paying job at some point. Especially if her parents didn't specify the extent of the help- why would OP and her son assume it was indefinite?

amother

Bluebonnet

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 7:11 pm

amother OP wrote:

I don't understand - the girl doesn't earn enough to support herself, her parents are not going to be providing adequate support, yet the girls family didn't discuss this with you prior to the engagement. What did THEY think was going to happen? Were they assuming that you were going to be the primary support person?

This is on them, just as much as on you. They went for the learning boy, they didn't figure out the support aspect. Why is this falling solely on you?. Either both families work this is out, or the girl will have to get a better job, or your son will have to take some sort of job. There's no reason that you must shoulder this burden.

Imo, if the girl truly wants a learning boy, then let the young couple figure it out. It's all very nice and rosy to want a working boy when you offload the burden onto someone else.

amother

Kiwi

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 7:11 pm

amother OP wrote:

We assumed the girls side would offer much more support for some reason they're not and my son's not sure what to do and begging us to help him yes they're engaged so no turning back Can't Believe It

How is this even remotely OK. He is intentionally choosing not to work, has family which can support- as he is choosing not to work, yet going to live off of other people’s taxes?

I’m not saying that he is the only one or that it is only one community. How can one have a moral/ethical compass and stand before Hashem and say that they are choosing not to support themselves but to take and to take from (and drain) a system which was set up with the intention of helping people who cannot help themselves-not who choose not to.
If you want to learn and your family is happy to support that-great for you! Kol Hakavod! If you have a community who wants to support those in the center learning Torah-that is a beautiful thing! But to take because you can work the system is completely different.

The Gedolim of the past all either worked as well, had their own families supporting them, or were supported by members of the community who saw value in their learning and were very happy to take part in it and facilitate. Taking from the government is completely different.

amother

Latte

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 7:16 pm

amother Chartreuse wrote:

As you say this is usually discussed in advance. It sounds like in op's case there wasn't enough discussion, but now her son has a problem and she wants to know what to do.
I don't know if you're right that every girl looking for a learning guy wants to be the breadwinner. I know plenty who weren't interested in that sort of the thing and if you're visiting the right areas you'll meet them.
In one case I know of everything was discussed and then girl's parents decided they weren't giving anything and the girl wasn't the type of professional she claimed to be and had minimal earning power. People fall into all kinds of situations.
Op, this is hard. You'll have to sit down and talk to your son. He's going to have to do some quick growing up, figure out what his priorities are, and make some tough decisions.

amother

Ghostwhite

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 7:23 pm

Can you all chill about the programs? One income at age 19/20 is not enough to live off. Office, teacher etc. such couples are generally eligible for Medicaid.
He is a student working on his Talmudical degree. It's all allowed and legit.

Actually, we did kollel for 5 years, no programs and no support. Dh is still learning, but has a side hustle so we aren't fully kollel anymore.

amother

Ballota

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 7:24 pm

Mayb sit down now with the other side before there are bad feelings all around. Tell them to offer an amount of $-any amount that they could do- it’s their child also. Even if the amount is $500 a month. At least the couple can rely on tht. You will give, they will have food stamps & with her part time job they should be able to do at least two years like this. Try to find a cheaper apartment. Hatzlacha!

amother

Chartreuse

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 7:24 pm

amother Latte wrote:

I didn't say they "want" to. I said that they expect to.
Why do you think there is such a teaching shortage nowadays? Girls who want to live a kollel lifestyle know it comes down to 2 options. Either they get a decent full time job that pays a liveable wage, or their parents will be helping out. Anyone who knows in advance they don't want to work full time from the beginning and that their parents will not be supporting them, doesn't look for a guy full time in yeshiva. They look for someone who is transitioning or working at least part time.

In your example, there are bigger red flags than just the money. That is people lying and being deliberately dishonest--not just the parents, also the girl. Even if somehow things worked out with the money, I would not advise my son to marry that girl.

amother

Cerise

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 7:25 pm

amother Chocolate wrote:

Do you think it's ok to use money that is meant for people living below the poverty line in order to follow a dream of learning?
I don't get it.

As someone who worked in a large low income neighborhood where their majority of residents were sitting on their stoops high, I don’t think this is appropriate.
Someone learning may also be below the poverty line, but for a much more acceptable reason than the MAJORITY of those on government programs.
Every society places value on studying for the sake of knowledge.

amother

Navy

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 7:27 pm

I think you need a frank conversation with the other side, maybe they have a plan. If not you need to come up with a plan together.

In my community ( chasidish) most girls get married with sufficient income to support a frugal lifestyle ( basic small apartment, no car, no eating out etc) with minimal parental help like maybe lots of meals & staying on health plan.