WWYD supporting learning saga - we just found out

amother

Stoneblue

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 4:30 pm

amother Thistle wrote:

Presumably, she'll get a better paying job at some point. Especially if her parents didn't specify the extent of the help- why would OP and her son assume it was indefinite?

You are correct as I interpreted it as long term learning to be the goal because otherwise you can scrimp for a few years just like other students scrimp for a few years and then get on with their "real life"

However everyone in this scenario - at least based on the posts - seems to be somewhat clueless in terms.

OP and her husband for not discussing actual support numbers prior to the engagement.

Girl for not discussing with her parents the level of support she can expect and also not preparing herself to at least contribute as much as possible after marriage. How do you not have this conversation with your parents when you are discussing what you are looking for

Girl's parents for not bringing up the lack of support prior to the engagement. This isn't my world but I at least know that the girl's family is expected to provide support for the couple IN THE MANNER IN WHICH THE GIRL EXPECTS. If the girl works part time at a low paying job then they must be obtuse or manipulative not to bring up their lack of customary support early in the game.

amother

Cerise

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 4:30 pm

amother Ginger wrote:

Why in the world are people talking as though breaking it off over such a reason is a normal or halachically acceptable thing to do? Look at the kesuba - OP’s son is responsible to bring in the parnassa, not to learn all day and night without needing to bring in any income. Breaking a girl’s heart over something so vile is just so wrong. I’m disgusted.

Presumably the kallah wants her husband to sit and learn. Him going out to work at this point will only lead to shalom bayis issues I would think. So his responsibility for parnassah probably won’t be helpful here.
OP, maybe the shadchan or a rav can find out what her family’s plan was.

amother

Bluebonnet

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 4:32 pm

amother Cerise wrote:

As someone who worked in a large low income neighborhood where their majority of residents were sitting on their stoops high, I don’t think this is appropriate.
Someone learning may also be below the poverty line, but for a much more acceptable reason than the MAJORITY of those on government programs.
Every society places value on studying for the sake of knowledge.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Nor she would we be comparing ourselves to the lowest elements of society. If we pride ourselves with having high morals and ethics, then we can't abandon that when it serves us better. Either we Yidden have high morals or we don't. Cherry-picking the situation when to have proper morals and when not, is an insult to the Torah.

amother

Stoneblue

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 4:33 pm

amother Cerise wrote:

Since there is no welfare in the US I don't know what kind of money you think these people are getting.

Even the old aid for parents with dependent children was pretty much abolished and there are limits on how long you can stay on and requirements to work.

I can't think of a single program that pays able bodied people "welfare" in the sense that they just collect a check with no accountability.

I am genuinely curious about what this money is and how one collects it.

amother

Amethyst

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 4:35 pm

I just want to post this for the sake of all those who don't come from this community.
MOST young couples who do Kollel do not get full support from anyone. The standard is that the girls parents promise x amount per month (usually enough to cover rent) for 5-7 years and that's it. The boys parents help out a bit if they can't, but usually not steady commitment.
Then the girl has a job, and sometimes one savings, they have his Kollel check and that's it! They make do with it as long as possible, and then he eventually gets a job too.

amother

Crimson

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 4:37 pm

amother Ballota wrote:

Mayb sit down now with the other side before there are bad feelings all around. Tell them to offer an amount of $-any amount that they could do- it’s their child also. Even if the amount is $500 a month. At least the couple can rely on tht. You will give, they will have food stamps & with her part time job they should be able to do at least two years like this. Try to find a cheaper apartment. Hatzlacha!

Depends on the area, city, their expenses... even as newlyweds and we scrimped, our monthly budget was crazy. rent has gone up. and we live in far rockaway

amother

Melon

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 4:38 pm

So I'm just going to echo a few of the other posters and then add in my 2¢.

First, can you clarify whether your son discussed with her how long he planned on learning? Was is 2, 5, 10 or 10+ years?
I think this is actually pretty important...

Now some things to consider:

Can you discuss with the other side if they can give any amount? If for whatever reason you can't have a frank conversation, are you able to get a mediator such as a rav or a shadchan involved?

Are you financially capable to give any amount? They are young without kids so technically their expenses shouldn't be as crazy hard if she was serious enough about the learning...

Many people in kollel (although I think typically married for a couple of years or with kids but whatever) tutor during bein hasedarim or by night seder. Can you discuss with your son whether he can do that?
If she is a teacher, then she may be eligible for chasdei lev benefits (anyone can chime in if I'm wrong...)

Medicaid (if they're above 26 or kicked off their parents insurance), WIC (with when they have children) and/or food stamps are very helpful...

If she wasn't considering a lucrative career, perhaps you can ask your son whether she can consider it now... Again this depends how long he was considering learning and what was discussed.

If they can move to an area with low rent and low cost of living...

I'm just an anonymous woman on imamother but these are my perspective.

amother

Bluebonnet

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 4:41 pm

amother Melon wrote:

If she is serious about the learning, then she'd either pull her weight in earning a nice salary or learn to live frugally.

Anyone can be serious about learning when they expect someone else to pay for it. Those who truly value it will do what it takes, even if it's challenging.

amother

Chartreuse

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 4:44 pm

amother Amethyst wrote:

There are plenty that do not even do that. I only know a few kollel couples where rent was covered for a given amount of time. It's only in certain circles. Most cover the rent on their own. They may get help, like maybe with car related expenses and such, but most pay rent on their own.

amother

Chocolate

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 4:49 pm

amother Cerise wrote:

How are you comparing one with the other? One is called a drifter/thug/druggie, the other is a ben torah.
The whole point of being in learning is to be an upstanding person with strong morals and values.

amother

Fern

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 4:50 pm

Are they not planning on giving any type of dowry? Be it in the form of monthly support or a lump sum? I find that very weird.
Unfortunately, the most opportune time for discussing this has passed. I would speak to the shadchan. Have they made other shidduchim before? Perhaps the shadchan can tell you what they did with their previous shidduchim?

amother

Crimson

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 5:00 pm

amother Fern wrote:

I did not get a "dowry".... no monthly support, no lump sum... its really only a thing by yeshivish parents I think. I wasnt raised yeshivish I grew more to the right and we managed on our own with absolutely 0 help.

amother

Chartreuse

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 5:01 pm

amother Fern wrote:

Are they not planning on giving any type of dowry? Be it in the form of monthly support or a lump sum? I find that very weird.

Why would you assume that? It's 2022, not 1922!
People don't give dowries anymore...well, in Israel parents are expected to chip in for an apartment down payment (both sides, mind you). In America, it's not a given. I'd venture to say that there are more kollel couples doing it on their own, than are getting full monthly support.

amother

Crimson

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 5:03 pm

amother Chartreuse wrote:

Honestly I dont know any kollel couple now that is not being helped.
None of my friends in Ramat eshkol work to support their husbands

amother

Lightblue

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 5:03 pm

amother Ginger wrote:

I agree and I’m a Kollel wife through and through , the type who wanted a husband who will learn and only learn forever and ever.
This is not the girl’s fault and it’s sickening to break her heart just because your son is such a big tzadik.

amother

Chartreuse

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 5:03 pm

amother Crimson wrote:

It's not a given in yeshiva circles, either.

This is why so many yeshivish girls are finding short cuts to get advanced college degrees at a young age, btw. So they can start off married life with a decent paying job or shortly after.

amother

Chartreuse

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 5:05 pm

amother Crimson wrote:

Honestly I dont know any kollel couple now that is not being helped.
None of my friends in Ramat eshkol work to support their husbands

The ones who go to Israel. Not the ones who stay in the U.S.
Used to be, most young couples started off in Israel (like 20-25 years ago), it was a trend for a good 5-10 years. Now, most do not. The ones who do, mostly come from wealthy families who are able to support. And the ones who are self sufficient aren't moving to Ramat Eshkol, lol.