Johanesburg or Cape Town?

amother

Heather

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 9:58 am

Why would you uproot your children from their schools and friends for a 'life experience'? Doesn't sound right.

Raisin

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 10:13 am

It sounds from what I hear that Joburg has a bigger frum community.

amother

Jasmine

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 10:23 am

PSA call me security focused but no one should give too much detail (not that anyone here has in this thread) about a jewish community online

particularly when it doesn't make much sense

nothing personal op

go for a pilot trip and enjoy

amother

Aster

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 10:57 am

I'll bite, as I actually live in Joburg
- There are many people leaving but I would say that crime is no longer the main factor that is driving people out - it's "loadshedding" and lack of functionality from the municipality and government. At present our electricity is turned off for appx 2.5 hours 3 times per day - this is stage 4 of loadshedding. It sometimes gets better and sometimes worse. People who call afford to have installed solar panels so they don't have to rely on City Power. Many people have generators or inverters but they aren't long term solution. Generators cost a lot as they run on diesel and inverters have a limited life span. In some neighborhoods water is also turned off intermittently due to major infrastructure upgrades but these upgrades take years. Many businesses have been adversely affected by "loadshedding" especially if they can't afford to install solar or inverters.
- There is also a trend towards "semigration" where residents of Joburg and surrounds are moving to other provinces. Jew are mainly moving to Cape Town as there are Jewish schools there. Quality of life is supposed to be better, fresher air, less "loadshedding" and better infrastructure. As for schools there is definitely no Yeshiva in CT the closest thing is Cape Town Torah High which is a community school that is a mixture of religious levels. https://www.cttorahhigh.org/. As for crime I don't have enough info but in general the crime in CT is worse than in Joburg.
- Security in the Jewish neighborhoods is actually excellent. People do drive everywhere except on Shabbos when there are plenty of people walking around. There are secure complexes where kids run around and play. You might let your teenage son walk to a friend on his own but teenage girls will generally only walk in groups.
- As for people coming here - to Johannesburg - there are young couples and families that are coming - mostly temporarily for Kiruv, Kollel, Chinuch. There are many young frum couples who are choosing to stay here many who don't want to bring up their children in the Israeli school system. Most communities are not growing - the one or two that are growing are those for young frum families which indicates that there is a future here. The frum schools in general have lost less kids than the more modern and irreligious school. One reason is because frum people are more hesitant to move their kids and especially older kids into the school system. They also have to choose where to align themselves while in SA everything is much more open and accepting.
- As for the community life in Joburg that is something found nowhere else. The warmth the community responsibility, everyone looking out for each other. If you seriously are considering moving here you would have to do a significant amount of research to decide which community you want to join. There are several more "chareidi" communities but you won't find any community where everyone wears a back hat. There are a lot of people who are successful professionals who spend a big chunk of their day learning. If you are looking for any sort of spiritual growth do your research so you find a place where there is a focus on Torah and growth. Many people are self employed and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who stays at work past 5:00. People have much more laid back life styles - as they say "chilled" not rushing around. Basically all shuls have a Kiddush every week where the Rav will speak for a few minutes but otherwise you'll just sit with friends and catch up or have some meaningful conversations (hopefully). Often the Kiddush is for a a Yartzheit, Bar Mitvah, Kiddush for a girl or sponsored anonymously. Many Shuls have Shiurim throughout the week and Shabbos.
- As for housing you can definitely buy a stunning house for the price you want but I'd do a lot of research before buying. You might want to rent - that is if you still want to come. If you have good American jobs with good salaries you could save quite a bit of $$$ in a few years. Insurance isn't cheap but if you have a good plan it covers dental and optical and there are excellent doctors and dentists here many who are Jewish. Vacations are much cheaper - camp is max 10 day and nearly everyone goes away 1-2 times a year. You can find vacation for pretty cheap. In general people spend less - maybe cause they have a maid helping out they don't spend as much on takeout and other extras. Also very few people are into brand names and the community as a whole is much less materialistic and fashion is definitely not Lakewood, LA or BP though there are plenty of people who care about the way they look, they spend much less on their clothes.
- As for yeshivas - they are much smaller probably the average class would be 10-15 kids. There are a few options and they mostly do the South African Matric - which is pretty challenging. They are basically spend 10th, 11th, 12th grade preparing and write all the exams in 12th grade - minimum of 7 exams. Some boys will do GED and SATs and leave before graduating to learn in UK, US or Israel. There are also girls that leave early. Some do Penn Forster and some do other curriculums. There have been some who have done Cambridge but I don't know anyone who has done it recently. As for the level of learning - I'm not sure where you live and what type of Yeshiva you would send your son to - you'll need to do research to find out if the level is on par.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 11:05 am

amother Jasmine wrote:

PSA call me security crazed but no one should give too much detail (not that anyone here has in this thread) about a jewish community online

particularly when it doesn't make much sense

nothing personal op

go for a pilot trip and enjoy

nobody gave wny real info about the community. Just that its a wonderful community.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 11:10 am

OceanRider wrote:

Please don’t move solely based on what you’ve read online.
Why not try it for a month or two during summer vacation and get a real feel for the place yourself?

ETA and if it doesn’t end up being so promising as it sounds right now, it will also be a life experience Smile

just remember that summer in south africa is not the same as america, europe, england etc.

amother

Aster

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 12:21 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

just remember that summer in south africa is not the same as america, europe, england etc.

Good point! Summer vacation is appx 5 weeks beginning of December to beginning of January. Midwinter is appx 3 weeks end of June-July.

naturalmom5

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 2:15 pm

racheli:) wrote:

What about health insurance? I know people need a private one, how much does it cost?

I saw house prices, so affordable to rent!

I wouldnt go there if I was given a house
But if you want a new life experience right now , maybe take a walk in the south Bronx at 3am
See if you like it as a trial run

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 2:41 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

I wouldnt go there if I was given a house
But if you want a new life experience right now , maybe take a walk in the south Bronx at 3am
See if you like it as a trial run

Its not THAT crazy Wink

But your reply made me smile. My grandparents lived in the bronx (not rriverdale Wink

) They are not alive anymore, but they left when the jewish population was starting to dwindle. Sigh.

amother

Skyblue

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 2:50 pm

Has no one here mentioned how weird it is to pick up 4 school aged boys and move them? I would never do that to my kids. Unfair to them, just because their mom needs some excitement.

amother

Sage

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 3:14 pm

There is something very disturbing about picking up children who have friends and a life in one place and uprooting them for fun.

That being said I was recently in SA. I have family there. The community is warm and welcoming. There is almost no judgement or peer pressure. People aren't very materialistic (how can you be if things are stolen all the time) and life in general is more low key. Those are the pluses.
The negatives is that crime is so high it affects your daily life. You don't ever take a walk outside your house, you don't walk to the playground. There aren't playgrounds. You have to drive everywhere all the time, you spend most of your day driving places. The police force is a joke. The government is corrupt. Wires getstolen from poles, sewer covers go missing all the time. Police are bribed all the time. There are beggers everywhere, you need a ton of security on your home and car. The electricity gets shut off for hours at a time multiple times a day.....I can go on and on.
People leave in droves!

amother

Coffee

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 3:34 pm

What everyone is describing reminds me of my home country -Brazil.
I would not advise anyone to move there. Same problems with corruption, violence, crime, lack of structure, crazy social inequality.

amother

Aster

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 3:34 pm

amother Sage wrote:

Some of what you say is true, but definitely not the bolded. On a regular morning you see plenty of women walking mostly in pairs. In the evening there are groups that go walking/running together. There are definitely playgrounds where kids play especially on Shabbos.

amother

Saddlebrown

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 3:49 pm

amother Sage wrote:

There is something very disturbing about picking up children who have friends and a life in one place and uprooting them for fun.

Yeah, something is really strange about this whole inquiry.

amother

Acacia

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 3:51 pm

amother Skyblue wrote:

Has no one here mentioned how weird it is to pick up 4 school aged boys and move them? I would never do that to my kids. Unfair to them, just because their mom needs some excitement.

I was thinking the same. I don't really get it. Do you have a therapist or mentor to speak it over with, op? It doesn't sound right to do this to your kids.

amother

Saddlebrown

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 3:53 pm

amother Acacia wrote:

I was thinking the same. I don't really get it. Do you have a therapist or mentor to speak it over with, op? It doesn't sound right to do this to your kids.

I think the whole thread itself is just for fun, and there are no real plans of moving...

amother

Aster

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 3:56 pm

Just to put things in perspective - when it comes to murders there are a number of US cities - nearly all with big Jewish populations that beat out Johannesburg - so please don't delude yourself that you are living in safety. Also interestingly certain crimes barely exist here - like school shootings and mass shootings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/....._rate

13. Cape Town
22. St Louis
25. Baltimore
38. Memphis
42. Detroit
60. Johannesburg
66. Philadelphia

Of course when it comes to other crimes Johannesburg is worse but seems like Jews are attracted to dangerous cities...

chanchy123

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 3:56 pm

It sounds to me that OP is looking to improve her cost of living situation and possibly she’s not happy with her current community.
I’m SA she could presumably afford to live at a much higher standard of living than she has now plus a warm and welcoming community.
I can see how appealing that can be. I’m assuming she’s unhappy with her current situation and looking to improve - I don’t think it’s just a sense of adventure, but the sense of adventure is allowing her to make such a drastic change in her life and the life of her family.
Don’t judge her so harshly.

amother

Aster

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 4:04 pm

amother Saddlebrown wrote:

I think the whole thread itself is just for fun, and there are no real plans of moving...

Well at least if OP is taking us for a ride she's not giving us a sob story and causing us to lose sleep about some fictional tragic situation....

PinkFridge

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 4:05 pm

amother Aster wrote:

The thing about lists like this is, how big is the metro region in question? How close to the epicenter are the frum enclaves?