It's okay to discuss how working moms impact their kids

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Forum -> Parenting our children

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amother

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 12:27 pm

There are so many posters who have said things like "It's not even fair to ask this question" about the working mom/SAHM threads. Why? Because some people have no choice but to work. And others are better mothers when they work. And there are SAHMs who are not present for their kids. Etc.

And all of those are valid points. But I still don't think there's anything wrong with asking the question.

It's like asking "Are anti-depressants taken by an expectant mother dangerous for her fetus?" It's a valid question, and one that should be studied. They should look at what risks a mother is taking when exposing her fetus to these drugs...in what percentage of pregnancies those risks occur...if there's anything that can be done to decrease the chance of those things happening, etc. Could you imagine if a bunch of women, some of whom took these drugs during their pregnancies, starting shouting about how you can't even ask these questions because some moms NEED these drugs, some moms would be at high risk for even more things if they didn't take them, etc.

That's besides the point. Yes, even if it was found that these drugs carry a risk to the fetus, there would still be some moms who should take them because the benefits outweigh the risk. But if they don't ask the question, there could be so many moms who don't have any way to weigh the risks and benefits.

Can any working moms take a step back and admit that it's okay to ask about the impact of working on kids? I understand that imamother is not an actual study, but that's sort of how social media works...You hear how something impacted other people and then can make your own decisions based on what you've learned.

(Disclaimer: I've struggled with depression and pregnancy in the past. I am also not a SAHM. In case either of those things matter.)

amother

SandyBrown

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 12:30 pm

Well said!

amother

Bluebonnet

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 12:30 pm

we should each look at ourselves rather than speculate about others, generalize etc

I am a SAHM and tempted to let this thread just wither on the vine

however gotta say see no good coming from it

ask questions how you can better your own situation

and/or reach out and help someone else

Chayalle

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 12:40 pm

I think it's fine to ask the question in general. To ask people to look around them and judge others is not.

amother

Snapdragon

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 12:44 pm

I think children are impacted by parents that aren't present. That doesn't haven't to mean physically not present. The parents might be there in person, but aren't there emotionally or in other ways.
I think every family has its own dynamics and each parent has their own needs and obligations. These threads seem to usually end up with people preaching SAHM is the best for children and a working parent is bad. There's usually a lot of judgement on both sides.

Chayalle

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 12:44 pm

amother OP wrote:

Can any working moms take a step back and admit that it's okay to ask about the impact of working on kids? I understand that imamother is not an actual study, but that's sort of how social media works...You hear how something impacted other people and then can make your own decisions based on what you've learned.

But a study would be much more comprehensive, and ask all sorts of other questions. Like for example, involvement of the father. Number of hours at babysitter. Age of kids. Number of kids What else goes on in the house. Is supper served on time and adequately. Is Mom available to kids later on. What's their financial situation and stress level.

It would also do a similar study on SAHM's, and ask some of the same questions. (I know SAHM's whose kids go to the babysitter too, BTW).

And come up with statistics.

Instead, these posts are asking people to look around and judge based on what they see. But you don't know all the factors, what else goes on in the house. You are asking one question - there's a whole set of factors that needs to be looked at.

amother

Bluebonnet

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 12:46 pm

Did you begin the other threads on this topic? What is your goal?

amother

Chocolate

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 12:51 pm

As a full time working mom by choice, I have no problem with examining pros and cons of different work-life configurations: standard full time, part time, shift work, freelance, seasonal work, WAH, and so on. IRL I do this with fellow moms all the time, and all of us have different balances and constraints.

But online, in my experience, the people who claim they just want to discuss or ask questions about these things are 19 times out of 20 being quite disingenuous. They want to advocate for their agenda and are not really open to a range of responses. So I have learned to stay out of such discussions.

By the way, the same is true of other hot topics. Like the threads that argue having a large family is bad for kids, those also often start out with a pretense of being interested in genuine discussion and quickly unmask themselves.

jd1212

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 12:53 pm

Does anyone ever ask if full-time working or overtime working fathers impact kids? How about we start that as a thread…

amother

Hunter

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 1:01 pm

amother OP wrote:

This discussion would undermine the foundation of the kollel lifestyle, so it's automatically off limits.

amother

Dill

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 1:04 pm

Yes, it's totally fair to ask those questions. But if you're going to be intellectually honest about, you'll have to ask the same questions about fathers who work. And about families where one parent stays home. There are pros and cons to all those situations, so if we're going to say these questions need to be asked, they need to be asked for all the possible scenarios.

Chayalle

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 1:06 pm

amother Hunter wrote:

This discussion would undermine the foundation of the kollel lifestyle, so it's automatically off limits.

And here we go again.

FTR both my great-grandmother and my grandmother worked. Neither of them ever heard of Kollel. I'm the only one of 7 sisters whose husband is in Kollel, and all of my sisters work.

amother

DarkRed

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 1:13 pm

I think it's perfectly ok to have the discussion as long as we are aware that the conversation in of itself comes from a place of immense privilege in 80% of the world.
Meaning that for most people, the question of which is better is irrelevant because both parents need to work in order to have food and rent and clothes. Throw in average of 10k tuition per child in the frum community (I know, some tuitions are 5k and some are 30k).
The question can be asked internally if there is anything else that can be changed in our own life.

amother

Khaki

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 1:16 pm

You can ask. But a lot of sahm responses come across as very condescending as if a sahm is superior. And in actually there are many sahm who are terrible moms and many working moms who are great moms. Also many working moms don't have a choice...they need to work to pay the bills...so putting them down for that is really unhelpful.

imorethanamother

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 1:38 pm

But it's not about mitigating that impact. These threads are used as a weapon, and I'm sick of the Mommy Drive-Bys. (A very old blog used that term, it's a play on the drive by shooting rhetoric. You have a bunch of mothers whose sole purpose is to denigrate other mothers so that they feel superior).

I have always had to work, and I also really like working. I've had bad jobs and better jobs. Right now I'm extremely extremely privileged to have a job that's much more understanding and allows me to be home more, but I only got to where I am today because of all the jobs that came before. And how can I possibly tell other women to quit their current job on the unlikely chance they can get a job like mine?

I don't mind discussing things that can hurt our kids. I still remember dropping my kids off at school before nearly anyone else had shown up, because I couldn't be late for work, and it hurts me to remember it. But I had little choice at the time, and if someone had told me that it was awful and harmful and I should quit immediately, they also weren't stepping up and giving me a brand new, easy and well-paying job to make up for it.

I can't tell other people what to do, because I don't own my own company and have lots of job positions to hand out to those that need to work and should also be home.

amother

Hunter

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 1:38 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Don't see how this relates to my point. I didnt specify that only kollel wives work. I just pointed out that the kollel lifestyle is built on the concept of working moms. If WAHM can have effects on children should we continue to promote kollel as the ideal option for ALL our children?

That question can be asked regardless if others have to be WAHMs or not.

DustyDiamonds

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 1:43 pm

There are so many different potential dynamics at play that it’s almost impossible to study.

Like the endless nature versus nurture question. You’d need a bunch of identical twins who were separated at birth and placed in different environments to ascertain that your findings are accurate.

Personally, my mom was a SAHM. And she was depressed. She rarely gets out of bed before noon. From 3rd grade, she was usually asleep when I left for school and when I came home.

Many of you probably ask my esteemed father shailos. Unless you were inside my house, you didn’t know what was happening.

You have zero clue what is going on in someone else’s family. ZERO.

I’m certain that working full time while being attuned to your child and offering validation of their thoughts and feelings (which is how kids learn that they’re real, versus dreams and fairy tales) and following the guidance of Dr. Becky Kennedy, would yield a far more confident child than a child whose mother stays home and is easily triggered.

singleagain

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 1:46 pm

I think it's okay to discuss how your working affects your kids.

Not to discuss it as it pertains to other families that you are not immediately part of.

That is to say if you are not the mother or the child you really can't speak to how someone else's household is running.

Wolfsbane

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 2:36 pm

In theory it's a perfectly valid (even valuable) topic to explore.
In practice, it just ends up being a bunch of threads where people make judgemental comments about other people's parenting.

amother

DarkKhaki

Tue, Dec 06 2022, 3:19 pm

If you're going to discuss how working moms impact their kids, them you also need to discuss how living on a tight budget impacts kids. In my experience many sahm make that choice with the expectation that they'll need to have a tighter budget to live in one income, but they feel like that sacrifice is worth it to be home with their kids.

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