Please don't bring babies or young children to megillah

dena613

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 8:59 pm

imasinger wrote:

I do want to challenge one statement on this thread. According to every opinion I've ever seen or heard, if you miss a word, or even a few words, you can catch back up by reading those words to yourself in your megillah, and still are yotzei. AYLOR.

That's easier said than done.
And it's extremely distracting to have constant noises.

amother

NeonPink

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 9:18 pm

I would agree if there were many options. But where I live, it's impossible to find temporary childcare during the day, very few men can lein, and no one provides babysitting at megillah readings. So I am stuck with my toddler. Today, I ended up not making it because he fell asleep and I was stuck - unfortunately, my husband was busy with his work and could not watch our son. Everyone else here is similarly stuck in a small OOT community, haha!

It can be hard to have little kids and no village Sad

amother

Viola

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 9:23 pm

I am not weighing in on this debate but only wanted to say that I remember vividly the moment of realization that I was no longer free to attend shul as in the past. Standing in the back of shul and trying to hear Eicha with an 8 week old in a baby bjorn. Gave up and left. Tried again for Kol Nidre and also had to leave. One of the men from shul saw me with my dd a few days later and said, "Oh, you were one of the people who had to walk out of davening on Yom Kippur." I felt so embarrassed, but also alienated. It would have been the perfect time to offer support. That baby is now a new mother and expressed her own frustration about how difficult it was to get to hear Megillah. Growing up, my Rabbi always said that he would much rather have children in shul making a little noise than not coming at all. I feel both sides but wish there were a way that felt more inclusive.

amother

NeonPink

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 9:26 pm

amother Viola wrote:

Yes, I was not prepared for the loss of normal davening and shul activities. For more than 3 years, I have never been able to normally do a thing with kavanah in shul because my first responsibility is to my son. It's painful at times.

I have been places where kids were welcomed ..... so beautiful!

amother

Pistachio

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 10:02 pm

The mitzvah is to hear every word. If your child makes a noise and people miss one word, who's fault is it? I understand children are part to life, but please someone explain to me, if children will be around, why is it not counted if we miss one word, due to a child making a noise and invaliditing what we heard?
While I sympathize for those who cannot find someone to watch their kids. It still is not right, that because you brought a child to megilla & they made noise to cause me to miss one word, again after 120, are you willing to take that responbilty? Right now, you are parents to a child. they are in your care. You will have to miss certain things you were you use to doing. but Hashem currently placed you in this matzvav. Find someone to lein for you in the privacy of your home. When one of my parents were homebound, we found & paid someone to lein, for that parent.

amother

Forsythia

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 11:36 pm

ora_43 wrote:

And be dlkz on parents, who don't always realize that their kids aren't capable of being quiet through a service until it happens. (whether its parents of young babies still getting used to the concept of babies, or parents of older kids who thought their 7-year-old was old enough to sit through a megillah reading only to discover, oops, no, they're not, at around 35 minutes in)

I don't buy this. Unless you are certain they can be quiet, you can't bring them. And anyone who has a baby for 5 seconds knows you can't count on a baby being quiet.

If you are in a position that you cannot fulfill a mitzva, then you just cant do it. If in trying to do it you prevent others from doing a mitzva, you have now done a sin.

LovesHashem

Wed, Mar 08 2023, 1:31 am

amother NeonPink wrote:

They don't have kid megillah readings? Where I grew up OOT there was a community wide reading for children where it was mainly kids. It probably took at least an hour as the baal Koreh let us have fun at every hamán and repeated often to make sure he was heard. It was done somewhere with very good acoustics and a very loud baal Koreh.

DrMom

Wed, Mar 08 2023, 1:32 am

Bananas! wrote:

It’s also a halacha not to embarrass people and a mitzva to be nice to people.

How is preventing a roomful of Jews from hearing Megillah on Purim "nice?"

If your child can't be quiet to the point that he is preventing others from hearing (even if that's perfectly normal and age-appropriate), you need to take him out and hear megillah later.

Nobody should embarrass you, but you should know enough to step out before it gets to that point.

amother

DarkPurple

Wed, Mar 08 2023, 1:43 am

amother Lily wrote:

I have an older very disabled son. His issues are not so much behavioral, but he can't control vocalizing and making noise, especially when he's excited. At the same time, he has full cognition, and needs and wants to do all mitzvos he physically can.

So.. during the year my husband brings him to shul and sits near the door, so my son can be at davening, hear leining, etc. but DH can wheel him out immediately if he makes noise. Boruch Hashem the other men in shul are understanding and solicitous of my son's needs, but we certainly don't want to take advantage of this!

On Purim, my son needs to hear the megilla, but not at the risk of disturbing others and costing them their mitzvah or time. My husband bought a megilla and leins at home, and my son is able to follow along. I know we're fortunate to be able to do this and not everyone can, so we've had other kids with various special needs join us if they want and are ready to listen to megilla. In this setting the kids are calmer and my husband is attuned to the situation so he can repeat words as necessary.
However, we're not prepared to open this leining to the public since my husband is not comfortable being in charge of making sure a large crowd will be yotzei in this situation - this is for kids who want/need to hear megilla.
[In previous years, when this son or my other kids were too young or otherwise unable to listen to the whole megilla but still knew enough to be excited about Purim, my husband would lein a few pesukim (including Haman's name, of course) for them.]

This works beautifully for us now, and I know enough to be grateful that we can do this.

As a fellow special needs mom in the trenches, I know how hard it is. My son's needs and feelings are paramount, but we need to figure out how to meet them without causing any 'damages' to others.

Kol hakavod! It is so refreshing to hear your perspective. May Hashem bentsch you with endless koach!

Bananas!

Wed, Mar 08 2023, 2:14 am

DrMom wrote:

I am not saying it’s ok to bring a child that will make noise I am saying that if there is a child there and you embarrass the mother then it’s a really harsh aveira and it’s important to keep that in mind

ora_43

Wed, Mar 08 2023, 7:47 am

amother Forsythia wrote:

I don't buy this. Unless you are certain they can be quiet, you can't bring them.

How can you know until you try? Megillah reading is a pretty unique experience.

It's not as simple as, once they are old enough to understand the need for quiet. Some kids have very low tolerance for boredom, or for noise, through bar/bat mitzva age. At some point parents of ADHD/ASD/whatever-else kids can't just keep them home because of a maybe; the kid has an obligation too. Maybe you wait and don't bring them until the are 9 or 10, maybe you look carefully at how they act in similar situations, but at some point you do have to just try it and see.

Quote:

And anyone who has a baby for 5 seconds knows you can't count on a baby being quiet.

Adjusting to it takes time. Especially if going to shul was a huge part of someone's life and identity before having kids.

amother

Mayflower

Wed, Mar 08 2023, 7:52 am

I try to Be Dan lkaf zchus but being in a place with literally hundreds of readings it’s hard to believe there’s no choice. I’m sure sometimes though that’s the case.

I heard yesterday by my husbands kollel. The women’s husbands were there. And still many people brought young children into the leining. They were interrupting. I guess the kids wanted to hear it. Idk. It’s hard for me to understand. My husband was with my other kids including a fussy baby and a sick pre schooler, but it is what it is.

amother

Tangerine

Wed, Mar 08 2023, 8:17 am

Bananas! wrote:

It’s also a halacha not to embarrass people and a mitzva to be nice to people.

What does this have to do with this discussion?

I think we all agree not to embarrass someone who brings a screaming baby to shul. I haven't seen a single post saying otherwise. You're emphasizing this point even though nobody is disagreeing.

This doesn't negate that it's not ok to bring a toddler or younger who is unpredictable to shul when they might cause a big disturbance.

Jewishmom8

Wed, Mar 08 2023, 8:19 am

I think that one of the biggest things lacking here is basic education.
one of the most important jobs of the jewish people is being a mom. full stop.
greater than any job or anything you can do. trumps almost every mitzvah.
taking care of kids is the greatest most important thing to hashem than you will ever do.
I was taught that in high school and in seminary agian and again and again. if people here dont understand that then the schools need to do a better job.
taking care of a child is a privlage.
having a baby to watch and unable to go to migillah? wonderful gift.
knowing you are doing exactally what hashem wants you to do? greatness
yes of course its nice to go to shul and get the mitzvah of hearing megillah. but having to miss it becucase of your kids? you should feel a sense of pride and comfort. you are the queen taking care of the next generation.
the whole point of mitzvos is to do what hashem wants us to do.

amother

Feverfew

Wed, Mar 08 2023, 8:33 am

ora_43 wrote:

It's not as simple as, once they are old enough to understand the need for quiet. Some kids have very low tolerance for boredom, or for noise, through bar/bat mitzva age. At some point parents of ADHD/ASD/whatever-else kids can't just keep them home because...

If they have a very low tolerance then you don't bring them until you're absolutely sure. And if kids have an obligation then its on the parents to figure out how to fulfill the obligation. The answer to such questions is never that you or your child's needs trumps everyone else's obligation.

That's the one point that some people overlook. We all recognize that its difficult for young parents. We all understand that sometimes there are unique circumstances. But none of that negates the obligations that everyone else has. If someone is in that tough spot, then the onus is on the parents to figure it out. The onus is not in the klal to have to accept to rehear multiple times to fulfill their own obligation.

Kol Hakabod to the earlier poster with the disabled child. You're a role model for how to handle a tough situation appropriately!.

wiki

Wed, Mar 08 2023, 10:27 am

I read the first few pages of this thread, and I didn't see my perspective posted here yet by anybody, so please forgive me if this is redundant, but here's my story:

I brought my four-year-old to the regular-time megilah reading Monday night. He was very very quiet at all times, but he wasn't able to sit in his seat well. He was rolling around a bit on the floor in front of me whenever the Baal koreh went ten pesukim without Haman's name. A few people did stare at me as though they didn't think he should be there.

But, considering my context, I absolutely would have brought him again if I had known he'd behave that way.

The story is that I have older children, too. They're in elementary school and when I was their age, I had been in shul for Megilah for years.

But my husband refuses to take them and have them sit with him. He's too worried that even if there's a small chance that they talk and ruin the kriah, then we're *both* stuck needing the late reading, and that's a disaster.

So, for the past few years when my little guy was obviously too young to attend, my husband went to the regular reading, and I went to the late reading.

And my elementary-aged kids just went to bed.

I thought this was terrible chinuch for my older children. So, this year, we all went to the regular reading. It was my first time at the regular reading since I became a mother. I personally loved being there. My big kids were nearly perfect and I was so glad they got to experience megilah reading in the big shul. And my little guy was rolling about in the aisles, but at least he didn't talk aloud at all.