Taking Little kids to shul

catonmylap

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 4:43 am

What do you think the limits should be?

A few weeks ago, someone told me I should take ds out Friday night because he was climbing on the stage/bima area. She said that kids aren't allowed up there or it will be a ballagan. Fine, I took him outside to play. He doesn't understand "no," at least not in a way that will not involve lots of crying and be way more disruptive. I felt it was totally reasonable, and I feel "b"h I reached the stage where I have a disruptive child!"

This past week, I took him to mincha and maariv(shabbos afternoon). A woman at maariv told me I should keep him quieter, again kind of impossible at this age... There was a big shalous seudos at shul, so I went to mincha/maariv with ds and dh. I've taken him to mincha/maariv before. The park is right near shul so it's nice to have some quality time with dh between mincha/maariv. It's also quite nice to be able to daven a little bit. There isn't a big crowd; usually no women, so it's much easier to watch ds and let him run around a little bit. So, are we out of line bringing him? If you can't have kavana because he's distracting-is that our fault or it is the person davening's fault? I would never bring him to a megilla reading or Zachor reading...

The funny thing is that when dh takes him to shul alone, either Friday night or weekday mincha/maariv he never gets "yelled" at.

There are always lots of kids in shul at "regular" times (Friday night and Shabbat morning). The bottom rows of the siddurim shelves have kids books. So, this is a kid-friendly shul. I'm wondering if part of it is the founders getting into their 50s and 60s and having less patience for little ones running around. They keep bringing up how the "older" kids who run around outside of shul are noisy and causing trouble..

happyone

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 4:51 am

I don't believe that small children that know don't know the concept of keeping quiet at times should be in a shul. Shul is not a babysitting service, playground, or place to 'hang out'.
I don't believe that mothers should go daven [with their little children] on the expense of disrupting the others from davening. Get a babysitter, work out a system with other young mothers where you rotate and babysit for each other, or consider davening at home until your child gets the concept of playing quietly.

Your question regarding disrupting shock

someones kavanah. You ask if it's their fault or your fault??? of course it's your fault. Having a child run around making noise is very distracting..... shock

Pizza

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 4:57 am

I dont think its so clear-cut. Some people are much more/less tolerant of small amounts of noise than others (I.e. a child reading a book, turning pages can be crinkly) and some mothers are more/less sensitive to the small noises their kids are making. Some mothers are also much more needy of the 'out' time, and feeling like a 'real person' as opposed to stuck at home with a small child (or children)

In most cases, its a 'takes two to tango' type of situation.

In similar situations, I have davenned at the playground, with an eye on my child, and met up with dh after shul. Alternatively, send him in with dh, while you daven on the womens side, since he never gets in trouble on the mens side.

catonmylap

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 5:04 am

I should say Friday night and Shabbos morning I take him outside as soon as he starts fussing. He actually sat through the whole torah reading this past week on my lap and then we went down to the kids tefillah (for ages 2-6) which he sat through till the dvar torah time.

You reach a point where you need to get him out of the house for a bit and on a hot shabbos, there aren't really many alternatives.

It's during the "off" tefillot (mincha/maariv shabbos and during the week) which I am questioning, where there aren't usually any women. The whole shul is emptier so there is more room to explore and less people to disturb.

Also, do you have your dh's take babies/little ones to mincha/maariv during the week when you need to go out during that time? Right now it's moved too late that I've just been missing all my classes because I want ds to go to bed at a normal hour. Or does everyone's dh either not a "minyan freak" or you live near a "minyan factory" or you just never go out at that hour?

Ruchel

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 5:12 am

Every time we're making a mom feel unwelcomed we're contributing to the dwindling of the Jewish community. It's not for the few times that I can push a stroller to shul that I'm made to feel uncomfy. My community doesn't mind.

Now, c'v, one day I heard a megila reading at a very posh and young place, and it was awful. A girl asked me to go away! My husband who had been called to read with the rabbi didn't even notice Exploding anger

He asked me what I was doing in the corridor Exploding anger

So I went back with him and the girls started complaining again. In the end they went as far as asking the rav if they had done the mitzva because of my baby and maybe they need to hear again!!
He told them very harshly BH that children had a HUGE place in a Jewish community and left. Maybe he would have been less harsh on someone really machmir (= not in tight jeans and sleeveless top at shul, ridiculously running after him).

It's also funny how generally men don't complain but women do, or people in restaurants complain more than in shul... to each their priority I guess...

We've been insulted more times that I can remember. Generally by Jews, not goiym, and by middle age to older traditional ones. Dunno why. And they say the stupidest things. "I've raised THREE kids, can you believe, and they NEVER cried!". "I've had two kids already so I don't want to hear your baby next to me, it gives me anxiety".

I feel bad for THEIR kids.

Pizza

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 5:15 am

One of the best compromises is to hang out at a neighbors, and trade off, during those 'off' tefillot.

My dh is definitely a minyan freak, and I have finally found peace by telling myself that the difficulties entailed are part of my being his ezer knegdo. Of course, he does try to accomodate me, to an extent. (That does not include staying home mornings to let me sleep in)(chaval)

It aint easy. Hang in there, babe.

Pickle Lady

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 5:17 am

catonmylap wrote:

You reach a point where you need to get him out of the house for a bit and on a hot shabbos, there aren't really many alternatives.

When my kids are crawling the walls I only take them for the kiddish and even then its no more than 45 minutes. I think my husband only started taking them to shul when they were atleast 3. I also thought with my first one that my husband should take him to shul when he was younger around the age of your son but he said no. Its not appropriate. Why not go visit friends in the same situation as you. Thats what I do. I visit friends. That is the most appropriate thing for you to do.

Why do you think its not appropriate have your child at megillah but its ok when men are davening?

Once you have multiple children you won't be able to do this because you will be too busy. So you mght as well find something else to do.

yo'ma

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 5:27 am

My dh takes all the walking kids to shul for shachris on shabbos, ages 3 and up. Ever since the big one was little, I told him that kids who can't sit and/or daven shouldn't go to shul. He doesn't listen to me. The shul that they go to, the pple don't care anyway. I only go to shul to hear the shofer, parshas zachor, and megilas esther. I have missed hearing the megila b/c I had to stand outside b/c my baby wouldn't stop making noise.

Clarissa

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 5:35 am

My father was raised Orthodox, wound up becoming Conservative and we went to a Conservative shul. When we'd visit my grandparents, we'd go to their Orthodox shul. My father always said that one of the things he loved about Orthodox shuls is that kids were accepted and welcome, even if they were running around and behaving like...kids. He felt Conservative shuls were more like churches sometimes, not as warm and family-oriented, and children were expected to sit quietly or leave.

shalhevet

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 7:45 am

catonmylap wrote:

If you can't have kavana because he's distracting-is that our fault or it is the person davening's fault?

Cat, is this a serious question?

If someone was trying to daven in the playground and your son was distracting him then he has no right to complain, but in shul....??? A shul is a place to daven, not for your entertainment, not a place to get out to, and not a playground.

About men taking a baby/ small child to shul because the mother has something else to do:

Either: get a babysitter OR you don't go OR failing all that - let your husband daven at home if you think your trip out is more important. What right do you have to distract a whole shul full of people because you need a babysitter?

Crayon210

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 7:48 am

shalhevet wrote:

About men taking a baby/ small child to shul because the mother has something else to do:

Either: get a babysitter OR you don't go OR failing all that - let your husband daven at home if you think your trip out is more important. What right do you have to distract a whole shul full of people because you need a babysitter?

Exactly. You put all the cards on the table. ;-)

Ruchel

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 7:55 am

For many men and almost all women I know, shul IS a place to get out and get to see other observant or at least traditional Jews for many people who see non jews all the week.

While obviously I don't agree with it, one of the only conservative points I can actually understand 100% is driving to shul and get to spend shabbes with Jews, "touch basis" once a week so you don't end up too "far". Same for people who come to services with their babies/kids because they don't find a sitter, I would rather have them here than not.

Most kids statistically don't go to Jewish school and don't belong to learned families, their only chance to spark an interest in being frum(mer) is shul or even ask questions to more learned people.

Yes, I've been annoyed by yelling, running, fighting next to me, or by moms so into chatting that I was the one picking up their toddler. But I can see a big difference between how these kids turned, as opposed to those who were never in shul.

Think long term...

Raisin

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 7:59 am

I take my kids to shul, but they don't go into shul itself, except maybe aseres hadibros or whatever. there is a childrens service and they go tot he kiddush.

I do feel sad that I am not able to sit with my older kids and help them daven because I have little ones. Sad

there is no one else in shul to do this, and soon my dd will be too old to sit with my dh.

Lady Godiva

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 8:00 am

Ruchel wrote:

You definitely have a point there, but I still believe that it is a parent's duty to keep their child quiet during the prayers. In our communities (sephardic) we have children's minyanim in a seperate room led by an adult. I do appreciate that. It teaches the children the importance of praying and they give out raffles and prizes to the kids to promote good behavior.

gryp

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 8:02 am

I've heard a story about a parent changing his 2 yr old's diaper on the bima. Rolling Eyes

Little children need to be watched. A father can NOT daven properly and watch a child properly. End of story. Which is a mother ready to compromise on, the child's safety or the husband's davening? It seems both. Sad

Something is wrong with the picture.

Ruchel

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 8:03 am

Crayon210 wrote:

You can't ignore halacha while thinking about the long term.

They do anyway. As long as it's clear that it's not allowed, I don't condemn someone traditional for driving to shul, on contrary it's better than driving to the movies or shopping. Now, when it becomes allowed (conservative/liberal), no way.

Children service I've never heard of. At best, huge shuls have a baby sitter service with one or two frum girls keeping the kids occupied.