Teen questioning G-d

amother

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 3:26 pm

What would you do if your well behaved, analytical, intelligent older teen decided we are all just a bunch of atoms. He apparently grappled with religion for a few years but never told anyone, was a top learner, etc Says he has spent a long time going back and forth with his rebbeim but he just doesn't have certainty that we have proof of g-d. He can't prove there is no g-d so he feels like he's agnostic. And he no longer wants to be frum because the cognitive dissonance is making him distraught. Without certainty in a creator, he can't live like this anymore.

I know how to treat him (with love and acceptance) but honesty, I know why some sit shiva when their kids go otd. I'm a wreck.

#BestBubby

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 3:34 pm

I found rabbi avigdor miller's book

Sing you righteous

Very scientific arguments for Creator and
Debunking various evolution theories.

His other book "rejoice o youth" is similar,
But I liked "sing you righteous " better.

BrisketBoss

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 3:35 pm

Everyone believes unproveable things. Isn't that the whole point of 'belief' as opposed to 'knowledge?' The important questions: what do we believe? Why? What do these beliefs do for us?

I think it's good when teens have questions and sad when people answer them in ways that are only going to make them more cynical about religion.

amother

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 3:39 pm

BrisketBoss wrote:

Everyone believes unproveable things. Isn't that the whole point of 'belief' as opposed to 'knowledge?' The important questions: what do we believe? Why? What do these beliefs do for us?

Well not everyone in this world believes unprovable things and he's joined the ranks of them....he thinks g-d is a man-made construct and we have no proof otherwise. So while some of Yiddeshkeit appeals to him naturally, he doesn't not feel compelled to follow halacha if there is no g-d.

If you knew my family irl, you'd be shocked. There is no dysfunction, happy loving home, otherwise awesome kids etc He says this is an intellectual decision.

amother

Lightyellow

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 3:42 pm

I could be your teen son. I’ve been grappling with these thoughts for years.

Honestly you should view him with compassion because it is a very sad and painful place to be in when your life centers around religious people and practices.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 3:44 pm

amother OP wrote:

Im so sorry that you are going through this. But it is not about what you want. I know, that may sound harsh, but I dont mean it that way. I just mean, just love and accept your son. And thats it. He believes or doesnt believe whatever it is that he thinks is true. Thats his to have.

When I was in sem, I had a big crisis of faith. I wont go into it, but all my parents did was love me and accept me for my crisis. They did what they thought could help. But they let me move on with my life how I needed to do that.

Just love him. And if he lives at home, show him the beauty of frumkeit. Thats all you cant do.

amother

Sapphire

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 3:44 pm

amother OP wrote:

You said he argued with his rabbeim - but has he read the wealth of material out there?

I actually think Rav avigdor Millers book isnt the greatest option
If he is smart and sciencey -
Genesis and the big bang and the rest of gerald shroeders books are great
Permission to believe and Persmission to Recieve by Rabbi Lawrence Kelemen is also good

amother

Steel

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 3:46 pm

amother Lime wrote:

I have no experience with this but in my own life seeing Hashgacha pratis, and Tefillos answered make it clear to me.
Is this a discussion you can have?

But you do know that not everyone's tefilos are answered, so for you it works, but unfortunately not for everyone Sad

Ive had these sort of questions for years. I have had many tefilos not answered or answered with nos. It hurts and I have turned away from hashem. Its the only thing I could do to stay sane.

amother

Cyclamen

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 3:47 pm

One of Hashems “characteristics” is to be hidden. I don’t think there’s actual proof but there are many many convincing factors that would make one believe that He’s real.

I recently read Attached by Rabbi Yaakov Danishefsky and really really loved it. Very practical, insightful yet down to earth. He brings psychology in as well. If your son would be willing to read it it might be helpful.
He speaks about doubting HaShem and what to do with the doubt.

amother

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 3:47 pm

Wish is great but he's not willing to go anywhere at this point. He's spent the last few years looking for proof of g-d and found nothing concrete (because there is no proof, only emunah, which clearly I have failed to pass on to him). The only thing he has found is no proof that there is no g-d.

BrisketBoss

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 3:54 pm

amother OP wrote:

Well not everyone in this world believes unprovable things and he's joined the ranks of them.....

No way. I know a lot of atheists and anti-theists and I've never met anyone who truly doesn't have faith/religion by some other name. They're superstitious. They avoid things because they turned out badly once before. They recycle everything that they have heard is recyclable and really believe that they are making a difference, and they are virtuously doing it for the Earth deity.

It would be good for him to examine the subject of belief and its function and how different beliefs affect us.

amother

Gardenia

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 4:08 pm

Sounds like me as a teen and young adult. It was purely intellectual, I just couldn't' believe something I couldn't prove, I am very science-y.

I read all the books, talked to lots of rabbis, teachers, mentors, etc. None of it helped. Reading books trying to prove G-d exists were not helpful because there are always more counter arguments I would come up with eventually. I had to eventually learn that belief in G-d is not based on proof, but in believing, and that was something I could only come to on my own (which I eventually did, so your son could always come back).

Leave the dialog and relationship with your son open, your relationship is valuable and the emotional aspects of relationships and other parts of life contribute to belief as well, so leave the emotional door open

amother

Lightyellow

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 4:20 pm

amother Lime wrote:

I have no experience with this but in my own life seeing Hashgacha pratis, and Tefillos answered make it clear to me.
Is this a discussion you can have?

Well, it’s quite obvious you don’t understand how intellectual minds think and feel. To me hashgacha pratis would never prove anything because I would prove to you how coincidence works statistically.

Honestly I find lots of the suggestions on this site tone deaf. An intellectual atheist will not be happy to read a fluffy, feel good book about emunah. It only makes it worse.

I know. I’ve been there and spoken to many Rabbis. Every single discussion left me more cynical than before.

amother

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 9:24 pm

So has anyone gotten intellectual answers that were truly satisfying? As much as I wish he would respond to the types of discussions that tug at my own heart, he needs something that appeals more to his head, not his heart.

amother

Teal

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 9:38 pm

amother Lightyellow wrote:

This.

I’ve had rabbis try to answer me and end the conversation with something along the lines of “trust me god is real and he loves you”.
And I would roll my eyes.

Anything that did not provide concrete proof went right over my head.

Issue is, god cannot be scientifically proven, because science deals with the physical and god is not physical.

At one point, I came to the personal realization that if I have to choose between believing in an accidental world of human beings and incredible nature and a purposeful world of human beings and incredible nature, the latter makes more sense to me.

The absence of god cannot be proven either.

amother

Calendula

Sun, Apr 30 2023, 9:42 pm

First off I agree to show lots of love and compassion and support to him. He may be intellectual, but he has a heart and a soul

Next Listen to Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb from ohr Somayach. He has a PhD from Johns Hopkins and is brilliant. He’s a long time BT who can relate and also speaks from the scientific and intellectual perspective.

I don’t have personal experience, but Rabbi breitowitz with Aish hatorah I believe is similar.

He needs people that can match his intellect yet. Also have a belief in G-d. It’s not a dichotomy, but it is relatively uncommon.