OOT community advice

amother

Jasmine

Wed, May 17 2023, 7:36 pm

amother Obsidian wrote:

In terms of the number of Jewish people living in each state, the following ten states come out on top: New York (1.77 million), California (1.19 million), Florida (657,095), New Jersey (546,950), Pennsylvania (434,165), Illinois (297,735), Massachusetts (293,080), Maryland (238,600), Texas (176,000), and Ohio (151,615).

https://worldpopulationreview......state

South Florida and LA each have around 550,000 Jews. The entire state of New Jersey has about the same. None of the other communities in the USA are as big.

57 percent of these Jews in LA are intermarried, approximately.

About 25 percent of the Jews in LA are frum. Let's talk Orthodox Jewish population please.

amother

Geranium

Wed, May 17 2023, 8:03 pm

amother Obsidian wrote:

lol this is not the frum community

amother

Lightblue

Wed, May 17 2023, 8:07 pm

amother Lotus wrote:

Was going to say, in population numbers alone, Baltimore has more frum people than L.A., however, as Baltimore is a much less affluent community there are much fewer eateries and restaurants as it simply can't support that many. You don't have the same numbers of people eating out on a regular basis. (That said, last time I was in Baltimore, I think there were 4 or maybe 5 pizza shops? Besides the ones mentioned, didn't one open up in the Greenspring shopping area, plus Caramel's and maybe the eatery at the JCC if it's still around? ) So, it depends on how you are looking at community size. Baltimore is also not that spread out, most frum areas are closely concentrated together nearby each other. It had the L.A./Miami vibe in that there is a lot of diversity within the frum population and people interacting with those from different backgrounds, but otherwise it is a more small oot vibe.

We have several high schools for girls.
BYLA has 3 parallel classes.
Machon has 1.
YULA has about 2-3.
Chabad- I don't know how many.
Bnos Esther -1 (Chassidish).
Valley Torah has 2.
Shalhevet is Coed.
Harkham Gaon has 1.
I might be missing a school... not at the high school age yet with my kids.
And we are bursting at the seams. We need another school.

I was using eateries as an example. But even elementary schools that serve girls- we have in Yavneh, Chabad, Maor (special ed, very small), Hillel, Ohr Eliyahu (2 girls classes per grade, it grew a lot in the last 5 years!), Bais Tzivya (Chassidish), Maimonides, Tashbar (Sefardi frum), Emek, Yeshiva Ketana, and of course Toras Emes which is a huge school. And I am not counting non frum schools. And I don't know all the valley schools. And there are some that were just preschools but are adding grades each year (emunah, mogen david. Plus the sefardi shul on pico I can't remember the name of is thinking of this too).

amother

Taupe

Wed, May 17 2023, 8:28 pm

You can find some houses under 850 in Baltimore. The further down park heights they’re cheaper, closer to Reisterstown road they’re cheaper. A lot of apartment complexes are section 8. Baltimore isn’t a poor community, plenty of people are buying houses now and getting new cars.
For boost, I don’t know how many families are helped. For a family of 6 adjusted gross income has to be just under 75000. And remember that just because you apply it doesn’t mean you get.
There’s no bussing, people try but if the public schools don’t have enough bus drivers good luck finding them for us. I’d be happy if we get free MTA busses like the public school kids. So far public school kids get free lunches next year for everyone and the frum schools don’t. We have to fight and beg and kiss up for every little thing.
OP, what are you looking for in a city? Different cities have different maalos and chisronos.

amother

Geranium

Wed, May 17 2023, 9:29 pm

amother Taupe wrote:

Baltimore is definitely a poor community. There is a very small number of wealthy families
My parents make about 400k a year in Baltimore and they are considered very comfortable. Where I live now, 400k is almost basic (I make way less, and before you all come at me, I also believe that 400k is very very comfortable! but let’s just say there are a huge percentage making double or triple here in Lakewood)
Almost food establishments close down after a few years, clothing boutiques are almost impossible to sustain with just the community’s business alone. It’s really sad to all the entrepreneurs, but it’s not conducive to businesses.
Any high end or luxury product is only sustainable when it’s marketed to the broader community in Baltimore
By contrast, in Lakewood, the frum community can easily support countless luxury suppliers in all areas of business
The restaurants and high end clothing stores and home goods stores that are continuously opening and doing well is mind boggling!!

amother

Taupe

Wed, May 17 2023, 10:26 pm

amother Geranium wrote:

I don’t know…I’m not seeing this.
I’m seeing houses being sold very quickly for prices that seem very inflated. (How is a semi with three bedrooms and 1.5 bathrooms worth more than $250?)
I’m seeing lots of brands and in things with kids. I’m seeing families coming back from vacations and Yom Tov who went to islands and countries and places I can’t pronounce. I’m seeing stores and restaurants opening up and doing well. I’m seeing people start businesses and thriving. And tons and tons of chesed and tzedakah.
400k is a fine income, but once tuition come in (at least 10k/kid with middle school high school and boys and Yeshiva more) and food costing more it’s not as much as it seems.

amother

DarkYellow

Wed, May 17 2023, 11:53 pm

amother Geranium wrote:

Oh my this whole post is Baltimore 15 to 20 years ago- before my time. This is not Baltimore today. Sounds like if you really did grow up here you had a bad experience. I'm sorry that happened. You needed a more high end life than the community offered at the time and it must have been hard for you. I'm so glad you found that all in Lakewood. It is a much fancier community, more lavish than Baltimore and people who need that should not consider Baltimore. Not there's anything wrong with it of course. It's just that there are many pashut, chashuv people here who are sameach b'chelko and are chasing after more noble pursuits just as there are many in Lakewood like that. In fact shocking as it may sound, many people are actually happier in a simpler community. We are for one. But it is not in any way a poor community! We have beautiful shuls, beautiful batei medrash, beautiful schools. Walk through summit park, Baezer, Ranchleigh, Stevenson, Midfield- I heard these areas weren't even frum 15 years ago! I'm laughing because mcmansions sprout up every other day as old homes are torn down and many people here don't want Baltimore to become that. At least 5 women's clothing stores have stayed open the past 5 years and I haven't heard about any that closed except basement stores. For men there's Hat Box and Clothiers. There's shoe stores for men, women and kids. Basically we can get anything here, although there's a much better selection in lakewood. Bashing Baltimore by saying things that are simply not true is just wrong. You can feel pride in Lakewood without bashing other communities. It's not a contest who has the more luxurious community! I'm not even sure that's a marker that klal yisroel should be measuring themselves by. OP didn't even ask about Lakewood! I'm sorry that your parents only make $400k and I do feel for them. We make less than that but we are happy, no complaints! HKB"H has been so good to us and my focus anyway is on the ruchnius! But from the looks of peoples homes, cars and clothing many are making more than your parents.

amother

Gladiolus

Thu, May 18 2023, 12:08 am

amother Obsidian wrote:

You can't lump South Florida under one category when discussing community size. South Florida encompasses many communities that are not really connected. There is Miami Beach, North Miami Beach, Adventure, Hollywood, Surfside, Boca, ... Each one has their own community and while there is some fluidity within the communities (the schools are shared somewhat) you can't count them as one. Boca for sure is a while separate entity from Miami and NMB, the two communities don't know each other (think 45-60 minute drive apart) and hardly share schools anymore.

Frum Baltimore is larger than any of the communities in South Florida. And Chicago is as well.

amother

Blonde

Thu, May 18 2023, 6:47 am

amother Fuchsia wrote:

Either I’m not understanding what you mean by a “Miami or LA Feel” or I vehemently disagree with the above posters cities. I have lived in both Cleveland and Detroit and NEITHER are large communities that are comparable to Miami or LA. Detroit has one kosher store , one bakery (that close by 3pm) one dairy restaurant (that closes by 3pm) one nice sit down meat restaurant, 2 meat take-out places (very limited menu and close by 8pm). There’s one pizza shop that also takes orders to 7:30pm. It’s extremely limited in food options, virtually no recreational or entertainment options, and very few places to go with children. The community has no more than 400-500 families… Cleveland is similar but a bit larger, but not by that much. Housing is more affordable in Cleveland and Detroit but definitely aren’t comparable to Miami or LA in terms of size, weather, food, school options , recreational options or conveniences you maybe accustomed to (like grocery delivery).

Baltimore has larger community, more food and shopping options and more affordable but still wouldn’t say it’s large or comparable to LA or Miami. I would put Baltimore in the medium category.

My understanding is that Boca Raton in Florida is exploding and is most likely comparable to what you are looking for. In terms of the weather as well!

Detroit has way more than 400-500 families. It already did when I was growing up, when it was still small. It is not an affluent community and that is why you’re complaining about restaurants and night life. People can’t afford to support restaurants and people are home in the evenings. There are many places to go with children, clearly you couldn’t find them. Glad you moved on though. It clearly wasn’t right enough for you, as you feel the need to trash it online years later.

amother

Begonia

Thu, May 18 2023, 9:24 am

amother OP wrote:

Thank you! Just getting to this now. In terms or LA/Miami, I mean that type of hashkafa (jpf/yeshivish mashup) and personality.

Thanks for all of your help!

If your main priority is a community where JPF/yeshivish mix together, I think Cincinnati fits the bill well and is relatively affordable. We don't have the same selection of schools and amenities as some of the larger communities, but have enough. We have two schools that go up to 8th grade, each of which has separate boys' and girls' divisions. There is a girls' high school and a boys' mesivta.

amother

DarkCyan

Thu, May 18 2023, 9:30 am

We really like Detroit! There are about 1000+ families in the frum community. Lots of young professionals here. Also a lot of people doing real estate/management type jobs. There are two amazing schools. Unfortunately housing is not as cheap as it once was. you can probably still find a house in the 250k range but it will be small and need work. It's a very peaceful, laid back community. Very suburban feel. We get a beautiful summer spring and fall (and a four month winter if that's your thing). We love raising kids here. Lots of great frum programs and a good atmosphere.

amother

Opal

Thu, May 18 2023, 10:21 am

amother DarkYellow wrote:

Every word of this.

Housing is still readily available at a very affordable price if people would have a more open mind. I bought my semi attached house six years ago for 200,000, and just under a year ago the house across the street from me sold for 170k. After she put work into it to modernize it, and fix the broken things, she still spent under 210k.

Your post was amazing but it left out or fantastic schools. And the fact that I’m like liquid, we don’t have any of the narishkeit here with getting into schools.

People move here, and if they’re expecting to find New York, or Lakewood, they usually move back within 3 to 5 years.

I love the Baltimore frum community, because “to each his own” is so huge here. You do you, I’ll do me. Because our children are all together in school, their classes are very diverse in every way, which has positives and negatives. I find the biggest positive to be that they keeping up with the Goldbergs that exists (from what I read on this site) is literally not a thing here.

amother

DarkYellow

Thu, May 18 2023, 10:57 am

OP if I were you I would take advice from those CURRENTLY living in any given community. People coming on here saying their parents live there or they lived there 20 years ago are not giving you accurate up to date information which is unhelpful to you. And I'm still scratching my head why someone from Lakewood told you all about how upscale it is when you specifically asked about OOT Can't Believe It

I grew up "in town" but have been out for over 25 years. It's a different place now. We go back for a shabbos/YT here and there, some simchas, my parents are still there but I no longer have a real handle on the community. Snippets here and there are just that. I don't chime in to those threads asking for advice because giving outdated advice from 25 years ago probably isn't what they're looking for.

20 years ago Brooklyn was the epicenter and we took our fashion cues from there. Lakewood was a yeshivish "nerdy" town with barely any ammenity's where learning full time was a given and "work" was a dirty word. The vibrant OOT communities were much smaller. Things have changed........Imagine asking advice on moving to Lakewood and hearing well I grew up there 20 years ago.......... totally pointless. So if you have specific questions about communities, take advice from those living there now. They will have a very different perspective.

keym

Thu, May 18 2023, 11:09 am

OP as someone who grew up OOt and has many family members in various OOT communities, I really feel linw you need to fine-tune your requirements.

Most OOT communities have a mix of JPF, yeshivish, MO. Are you looking for mixed in the schools and shuls? A specific proportion? More leaning one way or another?

Are your jobs portable? What kind of earning potential are you looking at in various communities. (As an example, earlier in the week, we say that speech therapists can range from $45-$70/hour depending on location).

Are you also looking for any benefits? Vouchers? Bussing? Programs and therapies in the schools? Some communities are more doable than others?

Do you drive? Do you need public transportation?

What price is affordable (for what size)?

Is weather a concern? Politics? Do you need specific kinds of drs?