S/o messy house - should I not have any guests?

SwissAlps

Sun, May 21 2023, 3:18 pm

All those that are saying to put the dishes in the oven, does it not start to smell from being in a closed up space. I tried it one yomtov, and the dishes came right out by the next meal since when I opened my oven to add more dishes I was greeted with a very strong smell of old food. When I leave my dishes on the counter it does not smell.

amother

Tomato

Sun, May 21 2023, 3:32 pm

I grew up in a house where the furniture was mismatched and falling apart, cracks in the ceiling (some ceilings totally fell down), and holes in the walls. The food is yum and clean but I was mortified to have friends over. Whenever we had guests and we had to serve the meal with mismatched dishes, a rundown house, and toys all over the floor, I would be mortified. I never invited anyone over without a huge warning.
I would never do that to my children... When I hsve guests everything is clean even though im not the worlds most clean person, its embarrassing to have people come to a mess.
I just want to say that I dont blame my parents at all. Money was tight and there were other reasons that I understand as an adult

amother

Eggplant

Sun, May 21 2023, 4:18 pm

amother Nasturtium wrote:

On the spectrum of sin severity you are right. LH is worse than being a bad housekeeper. Doesn't make the house or the food prepared in it any less off-putting.

If it’s so off-putting, don’t go to that person’s house. They are losing out on someone who judges them by their housekeeping, not their neshama. Likely not a big loss IMHO. I personally have no time in my life for those who judge my household skills or lack thereof. 🤷🏻‍♀️

amother

Eggplant

Sun, May 21 2023, 4:21 pm

Cheiny wrote:

Why would you bring in LH? That’s not what we’re discussing. Are you saying people who keep a dirty home are less likely to speak LH?

The issue is dirty and unsanitary conditions… are you seriously claiming you’d have no issue eating (even in a home of near-tzaddikim who commit no sins according to your standards) in a home with obvious filth all over?

I brought in LH because people seem to think it is ok to talk negatively about others who don’t keep pristine houses. Newsflash, people who aren’t meticulous know they are not and it HURTS when people talk to others about their dirty houses.

If I were to be invited to a filthy house but the people genuinely liked me and wanted my company, yes, I would have no problem attending. But more importantly, I wouldn’t mention their housekeeping standards to anybody else.

ora_43

Sun, May 21 2023, 4:23 pm

amother Nasturtium wrote:

I really disagree with this. Filth accumulates over time. A house may become messy over the course of a day but not filthy. Filth means that house is rarely or never cleaned at all.

Anyways, as I said before, domestically challenged people may be lovely, but I'd rather meet them for coffee than eat at their homes.

The only thing that definitely indicates time is dust. Any other kind of filth could have accumulated over time, or could have been the result of a single poorly executed cooking experiment three hours earlier.

I do think that in general you can guess at how long it's been since things were cleaned, but it's a question of time x no. of family members, not just time. The mess that one person makes over eight days is the mess that eight people make in one day.

amother

Eggplant

Sun, May 21 2023, 4:23 pm

Cheiny wrote:

So you’re good eating in unhygienic environments? Would you eat in a restaurant that was filthy?

I have camped and eaten outside before. Restaurants cannot be filthy by law/won’t survive by bad word of mouth but sure, it is a leap of faith if you eat out to assume that the kitchen is clean.

Cheiny

Sun, May 21 2023, 4:28 pm

amother Tomato wrote:

I’m not understanding the comparison. It sounds like your parents’ home was clean, albeit not in perfect condition. That’s a whole lot different than dirty. I personally would much prefer being a guest in your parents’ type home than an updated but filthy one.

Cheiny

Sun, May 21 2023, 4:31 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

I’m wondering why it seems like you keep trying to equate being unable/unwilling to eat in a filthy home, with being judgmental and less than.

Most sensible people would not want to eat under unsanitary conditions. It’s not only unpalatable, it’s also unhealthy. That has nothing to do with being judgmental.

ora_43

Sun, May 21 2023, 4:31 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

I have camped and eaten outside before. Restaurants cannot be filthy by law/won’t survive by bad word of mouth but sure, it is a leap of faith if you eat out to assume that the kitchen is clean.

This.

I think it's very natural to associate a generally dirty house with poor hygiene, but it's also not super accurate. Plenty of people with dirty floors have excellent food hygiene, and unfortunately that works the other way around too - plenty of people with pristine floors and counters and poor food hygiene practices.

amother

Nasturtium

Sun, May 21 2023, 4:33 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

Once again, it's not about judging you as a person. As a person you are probably wonderful and I can acknowledge and understand that there a many reasons why you may have difficulty keeping a clean home
But this thread is about inviting people into that environment. The undisputable fact is many people are put off or uncomfortable in that kind of environment. Another undisputable fact is that cleanliness is preferable to filth.
And in the interests of full disclosure, I am not a naturally tidy person and I find cleaning extremely challenging. But I work darn hard on myself to maintain a clean and pleasant home because we all function better in clean and orderly surroundings, and I want the people who enter and spend time in my home to feel comfortable.
I honestly think that people who are challenged in this way should acknowledge the difficulty and try to look for ways to improve in this area instead of getting all defensive about others feeling uncomfortable in their mess.

amother

Nasturtium

Sun, May 21 2023, 4:36 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Cheiny

Sun, May 21 2023, 4:37 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

First of all, no one here is mentioning any names, and merely discussing a concept of certain types of people in general is not LH.

Also, no one here is referring to people who “aren’t meticulous.” We’re discussing real dirt and unsanitary conditions. It’s not ok to serve guests on food-encrusted dishes or to have laundry hampers with dirty clothes in middle of the kitchen. Do you not agree?

You say you’d have no problem “attending” a filthy home (your words) if the people genuinely like you. So are you saying you’d also have no problem eating there, on old food-encrusted dishes, etc.? If yes, I think it’s safe to say you’re in the tiny minority.

No one is making fun of anyone either. We all know there can be good reasons for people not being able to keep up with cleanliness. But then not everyone should host if they’re unable to provide basic levels of expected cleanliness, like being served on clean dishes. Do you not agree?

For some reason this topic is clearly upsetting to you. But no one has done what you’ve accused them of from what I can see…

Cheiny

Sun, May 21 2023, 4:39 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I disagree. I think it’s usually obvious whether the house became dirty from say, a Shabbos seuda the night before, or if it’s from much prior…

Cheiny

Sun, May 21 2023, 4:42 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

I am bringing up LH because that is what I have observed in clean houses over the years. I have also had relaxing Shabboses free of LH in houses that are more relaxed cleanliness wise. Even if there isn’t a correlation, I would choose a dirty LH-free host Vs a clean house with a dash of LH at lunch. Just my own preference.

Wow, so you just did make a direct correlation between LH and clean houses…

That’s just too ridiculous for words.

Cheiny

Sun, May 21 2023, 4:44 pm

amother Amber wrote:

I know lots of families that have a hamper for dirty clothes in the kitchen. It is obviously works for them. I don't see the problem. They know their own family dynamic well enough to decode whetento put the hamper.

Really? Never ever heard of such a thing. Most people have it in a bathroom or laundry room.

NechaMom

Sun, May 21 2023, 4:48 pm

amother OP wrote:

My house is messy. Full stop. I'm not good at cleaning, my kids help but can only do so much, I don't have cleaning help. (can't afford and not good at delegating)

The house is not atrocious I don't think but it's definitely not spotless or shining. There are cobwebs and dust and yes even dirt depending where you look. There is clutter and stuff lying around and some things are broken. It's an old house and the owners don't maintain it well so even when a room is clean it doesn't look great.

Would you invite guests? I used to a lot, but second guessing myself. Should I not?

Are you comfortable with the way your house looks?
You are not obligated to embarrass yourself. If you’re in the mood of company and your food and dishes are clean then you can definitely invite guest for meals.
If you take sleeping guest you have to make sure they are comfortable with your standards. Will their linen be fresh? Will the bathroom they use be clean?
If you can provide the basics and be a gracious host your guest will probably feel very comfortable and not care. If you are missing the standard level of cleanliness you’re not doing people a favor by inviting.
I agree ruchnius like LH has no place on this thread. We are talking about physical space now.

amother

Sun, May 21 2023, 4:59 pm

Cheiny wrote:

Really? Never ever heard of such a thing. Most people have it in a bathroom or laundry room.

In the house I lived in before this one the washing machine and dryer were in the kitchen. Of course I had a hamper there. I don't see the issue, I wasn't putting dirty clothes in the food. And a kitchen that is dirty doesn't mean that the pots or dishes that the food is being cooked in and served on are dirty.

But I see that some people have standards I never will be able to reach, I wish there was a way to know before inviting someone because I don't think or at least hope not everyone is on such a high standard.

I used to think that people come for the company and if I'm not embarrassed they won't be bothered but from comments in other places and me getting more self conscious as I get older I am thinking that is not true for everyone.

NechaMom

Sun, May 21 2023, 5:02 pm

amother OP wrote:

See my post above.
People come for company but expect basic hygiene. It’s really hard to judge what you mean by a mess. You should ask someone close to you who sees your house IRL and will be comfortable being very honest with you.