Why the backlash against moving to an anglo bubble?

Reality

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 11:22 am

I don't understand it. That's what immigrants do. That's what our great-grandparents did when they moved to the Lower East Side from Eastern Europe. Their kids and grandkids moved away and became "American". But it's so hard to be that first generation immigrant. Why such animosity towards softening the hardship of moving to a new country?

My great-grandparents either never were able to speak English fluently or only spoke with a very heavy Yiddish accent. My grandparents spoke Yiddish and English. My parents, understand Yiddish and only speak English. I grew up only speaking English. That's the natural progression of life. I fully expect the same progression with my own family only we will switch from English to Hebrew.

Yet, I don't hear anyone disparage our ancestors who moved to the Lower East Side. Why are Jews who move to Israel to an anglo community criticized and put down constantly?

amother

Powderblue

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 11:36 am

Reality wrote:

I don't think you can't compare galus where we are different than the non jews and our children need to know it and set ourselves apart from them while keeping our jewish identity strong to moving to our country which is full of frum yidden and others too.

If we want our children to be successful in living here they need to be comfortable with the people around them and choose a certain mainstream box to put themselves into. For the record I don't like boxes and like serving Hashem how I choose but I do understand that in Israel you do have to define yourself more so that your children feel part of something and don't get confused because that is how the society is set up.

If you don't like it no need to live here, of course you can come anyway but your children might not feel that great about not being part of the country which they are growing up in

You can have your chutznik friends but the goal should be to have your children integrate into whichever branch of Israeli society that you choose and not fight the system. If you fight it it will cause them to be confused and be unhappy

essie14

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 11:44 am

I agree with you, Reality.
We raised our children in an "Anglo bubble" city and my kids are so integrated, no one believes they weren't born here.
2 served in the IDF and some of their comrades didn't know they were native English speakers for weeks.
Another child just graduated at the top of his 12th grade class ,5 yechidot in every single subject.
We moved here for a soft landing and BH it has worked out very well for us. My DH barely spoke Hebrew and he needs business contacts who speak English.
But our kids went straight into the regular school system. The ones who qualified got ulpan and hakalot on the bagruyot.

Many many olim need the support of other anglos and overall it has worked out very well for most of our friends and neighbors.

amother

Powderblue

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 11:48 am

essie14 wrote:

I am speaking from a chareidi perspective, I believe it might be different in the mizrachi and dati leumi world

amother

Orange

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 12:11 pm

I don't know anything about Charedi anglos except what I read on this website, but the MO/DL Anglos I know who moved to Beit Shemesh/Raanana/Zichron Yaakov do just fine. In fact, if anything they seem to do BETTER than the few I know who moved to non-Anglo areas, but this is a very small sample size.

I do feel like the ones who moved to an Anglo area prioritized social life and fitting in with a community more than those who moved to non-Anglo areas, but also those who moved to the more Anglo areas had more money, so both of those two reasons ( prioritizing social life & having more money) probably contribute to why those seem better off.

juggling

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 12:20 pm

Reality wrote:

I agree. We're very happy in our anglo bubble and my kids seem to have done just fine. But, as I said in the previous thread, there does have to be an eye towards integration when the kids move out of the anglo bubble after school.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 1:12 pm

Ridethewaves wrote:

Well it really depends on the result you’re going for. You can look at the final outcome and trajectories of major Anglo bubbles and the majority of kids that went through that system. You’ll have your answer.

I agree. There is anglo bubble and there is anglo bubble.
There is staying inside your bubble so much that you never integrate at all. And not even trying to. And always talking about the alte heim. Its no go for you (general you) OR the children that are trying to grow up here, but always have a foot in the other world. And then your children are not integrated either (I know of such families, its sad, and many go back and some never make it here).
Then there are anglo bubbles where there are many anglos but everyone intermingles and even though the english speakers hang out more together than with israelis, the kids all are playing together and the parents are trying to learn hebrew and do things so that their children will want to stay here and make this their permanent home.
So, again, there are anglo bubbles and there are anglo bubbles.

Personally I dont see anything wrong with an anglo enclave within a larger community. As long as you (again, the general you) try to do things to also integrate and not remain in a bubble and never come out. (thats my opinion)

Reality

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 1:22 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

How common is it for people to live in such a tight bubble? In my opinion, it's a small minority. Yet we are all painted with the same wide brush.

Reality

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 1:26 pm

Ridethewaves wrote:

If kids were integrated the way she’d expect after going through the school system. Not looking to get political.

I think you are alluding to the kids who have gone off the derech from the chareidi school system.

I have news for you. Unfortunately, plenty of yeshivish and chasidish kids are going off the derech in the US too.

People like to look for a reason. Being an oleh/ah is a convenient excuse.

LovesHashem

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 1:30 pm

Okay when people refer to this Anglo bubble they usually always mention as the example RBS. Not efrat. Not raanana, not maalot dafna.

I think they are right. But it's not because of the English speakers. RBS is a unique place that has created a world between dati leumi and chareidi and people function outside the standard set systems (not everyone but many do) this creates problems with kids getting confused, not having schools after they graduate, only being able to marry someone who is also in the middle and not really chareidi and dati leumi.

It's the people who can't pick a system and align with it.

As someone who made aliyah and went to a high school known to be kinda like that, there were plenty of Israeli classmates who also came from homes that were in the middle and that's why they were in RBS. Those girls also struggled and many of them aren't frum today.

People from the outside don't really know what's going on so they blame rbs and the Anglo bubble when that's really not the root of the issues that they are talking about.

essie14

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 1:31 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Yes, I like the word enclave better than bubble.
We don't go to an Anglo only shul. The speech on shabbat is in Hebrew. My DD is definitely in the minority when you compare native Hebrew speakers to native English speakers in all 3 years so far of gan.
We don't send our kids to the typical "Anglo schools". It's very important to us that they integrate.
At the same time , we have many Anglo neighbors and doctors and repairmen, etc and that makes life easier for us.

ora_43

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 1:35 pm

OK but are Americans who move to anglo bubbles really being "put down constantly"? Where is that idea even coming from?

I think that precisely because anglo bubbles are a soft landing, people feel a need to point out the downsides, because those aren't immediately obvious.

On the very few occasions that someone here has asked about, say, Netivot (which I don't think has actually happened, but just as an example) the fact that there are few English speakers and it may be socially isolating definitely comes up.

IOW it's not about hating anglo bubbles, it's about wanting people to go in with their eyes open, no matter where they're going to live - it's just that "so tell me about RBS" comes up like 100x more often than "so tell me about Be'er Sheva."

amother

Burntblack

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 1:40 pm

As someone who's family was here pre war, there definitely was criticisms of the people who came and didn't "get with the program" My 90yo grandfather who grew up in Newark has tons of stories of what his father would say about the people who came post war. My grandmother who is 3rd gen American tells me how her family was divided for years because her mother married a Yiddish speaking immigrant (who, side note, ended up becoming a successful American businessman)

I'm not saying anything for or against moving to communities that you feel are best for you but it's incorrect to say no one complained about all of the Jews who moved to Brooklyn and lower Manhattan post war. We're just far enough removed from that that it's not current.

Reality

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 1:44 pm

ora_43 wrote:

It's coming from my real life experience of multiple people ( who still live in the US) telling me directly that moving to RBS isn't really living in Israel, it's an extension of NY/NJ.

I also have read posts here on imamother with the same attitude in general. One time it was directed at me specifically. But there is definitely an overall negative attitude, especially from people who dont live in Israel, and I'm wondering why.

I'm so curious if olim from other countries experience the same thing...