Eating fleishig during the 9 days for a woman's siyum

amother

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 6:36 pm

Some hold you can and should, others disagree, see links below for more details. AYLOR if needed.

My LOR says yes, and I just did my first one ever today, on a seder of mishnayos. I wasn't planning for it to fall on the nine days, but it worked out that way.

We didn't do anything big or fancy, just me and DH and the kids eating fleishig takeout at home. But it was special.

Anyone else either made a siyum during these 9 days or planning to?

Halacha shiur by Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz, who mentions that Rav Schachter agrees l'halacha that it is permissible to eat meat at a woman's siyum, assuming she is learning l'shem shamayim, etc.:

http://www.yutorah.org/lecture.....iyum/

Rav Shlomo Wahrman's teshuva permitting the practice, which is discussed in the above shiur: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdf.....um=47

amother

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 6:47 pm

amother Razzmatazz wrote:

Absolutely not. We hold not to. People cant go 9 days without meat they dafka have to make the siyum now?

You mean you would make the siyum but not eat meat?

I don't have a problem with meatless meals at all. Before I became fully shomer Shabbos and kashrus, I ate mostly vegetarian and regularly went weeks at a time without eating meat. I love pasta, pizza, eggs, fish, cheese, and I even love tofu and veggie burgers Smile

amother

Lightblue

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 6:49 pm

I think there are two separate halachic and hashkafic issues:

1. A woman's siyum on mishnayos being a seudas mitzvah

2. making a siyum during the nine days, either by design (in order to have meat), or it just working out that way and using it as a muttar opportunity to have meat.

Both of these issues will probably get pretty vehement responses.

amother

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 6:55 pm

amother Lightblue wrote:

Yes, agreed. I was focused more on the first one.

I know #2 is a hot topic these days, but the controversy is usually around either the contrived nature of certain siyums, the participation of too many people who have no connection to the person learning, extremely ostentatious or luxurious siyum feasts, and/or consecutively siyuming throughout the entire nine days. Sometimes you have more than one of these factors present. I don't think my tiny siyum would stand out in any of these regards, and there are much bigger fish to fry on #2.

amother

Razzmatazz

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 6:56 pm

amother OP wrote:

No, Im referring to point 2 the poster before me mentioned "making a siyum during the nine days, either by design (in order to have meat), or it just working out that way and using it as a muttar opportunity to have meat."

I find it a bit deceptive (cant think of a better word) to maneuver a siyum specifically during this time.

Maybe I think more black and white since I am a baalas teshuva.

amother

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 7:01 pm

amother Razzmatazz wrote:

I specifically said that I didn't plan for it to fall out on the 9 days, so I'm not sure why you are bringing up maneuvering in this thread.

amother

Babyblue

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 7:05 pm

How is a woman's siyum mishnayos a seudos mitzvah??? This seems to me like the W.O.W situation and women Rabbi's....
Women have no chiyuv to learn. It's not a mitzvah for women.

amother

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 7:10 pm

amother Babyblue wrote:

How is a woman's siyum mishnayos a seudos mitzvah??? This seems to me like the W.O.W situation and women Rabbi's....
Women have no chiyuv to learn. It's not a mitzvah for women.

Two separate issues that you're conflating. First, whether a sufficient siyum can be made on seder of mishnayos by anyone, man or woman. This I think is not so controversial, but I wouldn't be surprised if multiple views. I specifically asked my rav about this detail.

Second, whether it can be done by a woman specifically, on which there is more disagreement. You don't have to agree, not all rabbanim do, but trying to group Rav Wahrman or Rav Schachter with WOW just shows your ignorance. If you eat food heschered by the OU, you're relying on Rav Schachter.

amother

Babyblue

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 7:13 pm

amother OP wrote:

Men in our family don't make a siyum in the 9 days.
And no, I don't think it's ignorant to compare it to W.O.W. women have no chiyuv to learn. Women have no chiyuv to read from the torah and have an aliya, woman have no chiyuv to learn mishnayos or anything else.
And no, eating OU is not necessarily relying on Rav Schachter. OU isn't run by 1 single Rabbi or baal machsher. It's a whole different operation than heimish hechshers.

amother

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 7:16 pm

amother Babyblue wrote:

It sounds like you have all the answers you want. Thanks for sharing your input.

amother

Babyblue

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 7:17 pm

amother OP wrote:

It sounds like you have all the answers you want. Thanks for sharing your input.

What's the point of this thread? Asking seriously.

amother

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 7:19 pm

amother Babyblue wrote:

I didn't mean that Rav Schachter is the mashgiach over every product personally. That would be quite the feat. But he's been one of the two or three top OU poskim for years.

amother

Lightblue

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 7:21 pm

amother Lightblue wrote:

I want to add to my post, on #1, that it's misleading to say that women don't have a chiyuv to learn. Torah belongs to all jews. Women are certainly obligated to learn halachos that apply to them, and certainly get schar for learning. That being said, Torah sh'bal peh, specifically Mishna and gemarah, and the systematic learning of abstract subjects, is an obligation on men, and not on women. Not because women are inferior, intellectually or spiritually, but because men and women have different roles.

amother

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 7:23 pm

amother Babyblue wrote:

What's the point of this thread? Asking seriously.

For me? To share my small personal accomplishment and also to see if any other women were doing same and connect with them, however virtually and anonymously. A lot of women quietly learn and it's not necessarily a big community thing where we all get to see each other IRL. There have been similar threads on here before about daf yomi. I don't learn gemara, not on any kind of regular basis anyway, but I was happy to see those women connect.

For you? I don't know.

amother

Babyblue

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 7:24 pm

amother OP wrote:

So maybe put in your OP that you're only sharing this because you want to share an accomplishment and not because you're interested in hearing other people's opinions.

amother

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 7:26 pm

amother Lightblue wrote:

The shiur and the teshuvah I posted above address the seudas mitzvah aspect specifically. I'm not going to try to summarize it because I don't want to misstate. But anyone who is actually interested in the rationale can listen or read for themselves.