One thing missing from all the finance theads- bitachon

amother

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 5:48 am

I don't mean live a super luxurious lifestyle beyond your means and expect Hashem will help you.

But I mean do a reasonable amount of hishtadlus (being home with kids is reasonable, DH working one job and not three is reasonable). Let Hashem do the rest. All money comes from him.

Unnecessary debt is the opposite of hishtadlus, but if we are truly doing our hishtadlus and we have unexpected expenses that we can't pay and we have debt, that's Hashems debt, not ours. It doesn't mean we need to scramble and be stressed and not around for our kids.

Hashlech el Hashem Yehavcha

Send your burdens to Hashem and he will sustain you.

amother

Slategray

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 5:53 am

I'm always a little confused about bitochon. You say ,"have bitochon and hashem will sustain you". Hashem allows people with bitachon to get sick die, suffer from infertility, marry abusive people and all types of terrible things. Why do you think the exclusion is sustenance and that those with bitochon won't suffer with this?

amother

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 5:55 am

amother Slategray wrote:

It doesn't mean someone won't suffer. It doesn't mean someone won't have poverty. It means that it's not my choices that change things if those choices are in line with what Hashem wants from me.
It means that essentially it's not my "problem" if I suffer. It's not a "problem" at all in fact. It's the trajectory of my life. I just need to do the best I can.
Hashem carries and sustains me throughout my life. My problems are his problems.

amother

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 5:57 am

amother Slategray wrote:

With parnassah it can feel like if I take on a third job, then I will make it. That's kochi votzem yadi

If I take on a third job it's because Hashem intended that I have that amount of money this year.

The money doesn't come from my job. It comes from Hashem. Hishtadlus is just a vehicle for Hashem to give it to me so it's not an open miracle.

amother

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 5:58 am

amother Burgundy wrote:

I'm also confused, I don't know if bitachon means everything will work out the way you want, and what about the teva in the world
I was taught to do as much as I won't regret x doing more but I don't know if there's an amount I wouldn't regret

No bitachon doesn't mean it will work out how you want it. Bitachon means I make reasonable choices and I know all the money I have/don't have is because of Hashem, not due to how much I worked.

amother

Cerulean

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 6:58 am

So your saying that someone living month to month, with debt, should just have bitachon and it will all be ok because hashem deemed it to be that way for that family?
I dont think thats bitachon. Hashem wants us to do our hishtadlus. We cant just sit around and wait for the money to come our way.

amother

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 7:00 am

amother Cerulean wrote:

I never said sit around and wait. I said do the best we can. But hishtadlus is a vehicle. It's not a straight equation. More work equals more money.

Yes someone living month to month if they're putting in reasonable hishtadlus trusts that this is what Hashem wants.

amother

Forsythia

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 7:22 am

The way I was taught bitachon and parnassah is that you don't have to, and shouldn't, calculate down to the penny for your budget. If your budget is short by a thousand or two a year, ok, trust in Hashem. But if our budgets are off by 30,000 or more a year, it's not really realistic to rely on Hashem to fill in that gap. Of course Hashem can do anything, but we're not supposed to rely on miracles, and it would take a nes to have that amount of money come to you.

amother

Forsythia

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 7:40 am

amother OP wrote:

Living month to month and dealing with unexpected expenses I agree is reasonable but having debt every month that you never seem to get out of would seem like it is not working and not reasonable hishtadlus.

And I think you need to have a very high level of bitachon and a commitment to living very simply if you're expecting to live off of one income.

amother

Cerulean

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 8:25 am

amother Forsythia wrote:

And if both spouses are working full time and still the family is living month to month? That is how we live. Full time, both spouses, and its month to month. There are only so many hours in a day to work. So what more hishtadlus can we actually do? Just leave it in hashem's hands? I mean, we cant work more hours than we do. Its unfortunately a vicious cycle.

Trademark

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 8:37 am

We have to do our hishtadlus, and leave the rest up to Hashem. That what it means. Do what's normal and don't fret and worry about the rest, because you're not in control, Hashem is.

Hishtadlus only gives us an illusion of control, that's how hashem created the world. But really nothing we do affects the outcome.

Of course these are all lofty concepts and we have to work on it every day.

amother

Jetblack

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 8:42 am

amother OP wrote:

Agree. But then our schools should operate with the same mindset. They shouldn't be setting tuition to be onerous on society. They should do their hishtadlus and set tuition at a reasonable rate so that the average family can afford it, and then have bitachon that Hashem will provide the rest.

amother

Stonewash

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 8:53 am

The problem is the "reasonable".

You're saying it's reasonable for the mother to stay. What else is reasonable? Is cleaning help 3 times a week reasonable? Is new Yom Tov clothing for everyone from expensive frum stores reasonable? Is putting away for retirement while going into debt in order to claim the matching hishtadlus or living with bitachon?

What about when Hashem says no?

Trademark

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 9:00 am

amother Stonewash wrote:

We learned that the amount of hishtadlus a person has to do relates directly to how much bitachon they have.

Also reasonable is going to look different for everyone, the point is that you should feel like you are doing your best and leave the rest up to Hashem. Not overworked to a point of breaking.

amother

Slategray

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 9:05 am

Trademark wrote:

Why is it so hard to believe that hashem put teva into the world and runs it accordingly? That's why I know there won't be a snowstorm in NYC tomorrow. Because it's July and hashem created teva which dictates that it won't snow in July. Ever.

Hashem also made it so that accountants, lawyers and doctors, earn more money than secretaries, teachers, and data entry workers. We all know this.

Hashem also put into teva that the harder you try the more you will get on average. So if I diet and do exercise I'll lose weight and be healthy. If I don't than I'm less likely to be healthy. There's teva in EVERYTHING. How many obese people live to 90? It's all up to hashem. Why can't he make someone like this live that long? Teva.

And that's also why when c'vs we are dealing with a crisis we don't do "what's normal", and instead go to the end of the earth to solve the crisis. If a severe medical need can only be resolved by traveling to the other end of the world and staying there a year, we'll do just that. We won't go to a local doctor and leave it up to hashem. If our child is struggling with shidduchim we try harder. If we are struggling with parnassah. we try harder and get a second job.

This is reality.

Trademark

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 9:13 am

amother Slategray wrote:

Of course this is how Hashem created the world and how he wants us to function. We are regular people.

But hakol bedei shamayim chutz m'yiras shamayim.

I am far from that level, just discussing the concept.