Not listening to your dr

amother

Thu, Sep 21 2023, 9:21 pm

My doctor told me not to fast, it wouldn’t be the first time, I have a number of medical conditions and have had trouble fasting even when everything is stable . She is frum , but tends to error on the side of caution with almost everything . This year I am just recovering from a long illness, being in and out of the hospital. I guess my question is how bad is it not to listen and to try to fast and break it if I feel sick?
Didn’t really get a clear answer from a rav, he just said if the doctor said I need to drink then I should drink in shiurim.

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Sep 21 2023, 9:26 pm

the problem is that I would think that it's not so simple oh just fast and then break it if you are sick . I wouldn't play around with fasting when the doctor says not to unless I got a second opinion from a doctor that is aware of my medical history. it sounds like you are really starting from a weakened place, being in and out of the hospital. we are told to be very careful with our health. if you need to eat then Hashem wants you to eat.
Refuah shelaimah, I hope soon you will feel better and this won't even be a shailah!

amother

Smokey

Thu, Sep 21 2023, 9:31 pm

I think the answer from your Rav is pretty clear. He is telling you that you need to listen your doctor and that you should drink shiurim so you will be hydrated.

Personally, I have a heart condition and when I am pregnant I cannot go 24 hours without fluids, so I need to drink shiurim. I honestly didn't think much about it or feel bad. The same Torah that commands us to fast commands us to take care of our health. Also, the way I look at it is that being pregnant and bringing Jewish neshamos into this world is good thing. And if it means I can't simultaneously keep the commandment of fasting on Yom kippur, then so be it. Ultimately it's for a good cause.

amother

Thu, Sep 21 2023, 9:36 pm

amother Denim wrote:

Why wouldn’t you listen to your doctor?

Also shiurim is still fasting.

Because I finally feel fine now, it feels funny to still be treated like a choleh. And I hate doing shiurim, it’s almost worst than fasting, the constant measuring and watching the clock and drinking so little at a time but constantly. It means I can’t nap, can’t really daven, watch my kids because every 5-6 minutes I have to stop to drink.

amother

Thu, Sep 21 2023, 9:39 pm

amother Smokey wrote:

So I have a heart condition also, and part of the problem now is that we are just making medication adjustments from me being sick and don’t know yet how I will react to it. It just feels funny to break my fast when I am no where near as sick as I was the other times I drank on Y”k

amother

Mustard

Thu, Sep 21 2023, 9:44 pm

I would rephrase your question - not listening to your doctor OR your rav.

You can ask your rav if it's ok to take a break from shiurim while you nap. But please don't disregard your medical and halachic advice altogether.

I was in a similar situation to you on Tisha bav. I was told by my rav not to fast at all. So I didn't. Next year will be a new opportunity (or not, hopefully moshiach will be here).

amother

Latte

Thu, Sep 21 2023, 11:15 pm

Your dr is your medical authority. Your rav, who is your spiritual authority, told you to listen to your dr. I don't understand why you would even think to do otherwise. You think you're frummer than your rav?

What do you mean that your dr tends to "err" on the side of caution? She'd be erring if she said "sure, go ahead and fast, worst comes to worst and you have an episode, the paramedics can start an IV on you before they transport you to the nearest ED."

amother

Smokey

Thu, Sep 21 2023, 11:24 pm

amother OP wrote:

I agree that doing shiurim is stressful. But if that is what you need to do according to your doctor and rav, then you need to do it.

Also you don't necessarily need to do it the entire day. I think I took a 2 hour nap in the afternoon after a whole morning of hydrating myself

I think halachically it's better to do shiurim than ultimately need to break your fast entirely. You cannot choose to attempt fasting and then break it if necessary, just because it is easier for you than shiurim. Yom Kippur isn't about doing what's easiest.

amother

Pewter

Fri, Sep 22 2023, 12:18 am

You know you don’t need to do shuirim continuously. It is not more often than ever however many minutes and it is no more than I believe it is one Oz. So if you do shuirim for 2 hours, that is about 20 Oz. You should be good for a while and able to take a nap, or even go to shul for a while if you are so inclined.

I have a friend who did shuirim of Ensure plus, as per her Rav. But she consistently had a shuir every 6 minutes (or however long it is) bottom line, she had 12 containers that day and then complained that she had too much and didn’t feel good.

(Just for the record, that is more than 4000 calories and 96 Oz of liquid. That is a lot for anyone, at any time.)

Additionally, as stated above, shuirim is still considered fasting, and I believe is preferable to breaking your fast.

amother

Hosta

Fri, Sep 22 2023, 12:35 am

amother OP wrote:

I know someone with a medical condition who didn't think it was so bad that they couldn't fast. They didn't even ask their doctor or rav. The third year in a row that they ended up in the hospital over sukkos, their rav told them that they are not allowed to fast ever again, even though their doctors werent positive that fasting was the cause.

If you're finally getting better then it's probably even more important not to stress your body.

amother

Fri, Sep 22 2023, 9:09 am

amother Latte wrote:

Error on the side of caution like sending me to the ER for any little thing when the ER doctors are always like everything is fine why did you come in, or making me do bloodwork every week when some patients on the meds I take do it once a month, just overall, she tends to be very cautious. Yes there are times she has saved my life and caught things early, but 9/10 times I find she puts limitations on me that my other doctors think are extraneous.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Fri, Sep 22 2023, 9:34 am

amother OP wrote:

Fasting would be a sin if your Rav told you to drink in shiurim.
Please know that drinking in shiurim is NOT breaking your fast.
Listen to your dr and Rav. Ignore the Yetzer Hara telling you to fast.
Being cautious as your dr is, is the Torah way.
A gut gebenched year.

PinkFridge

Fri, Sep 22 2023, 9:38 am

Chayim birtzono. Life on His terms.

Rabbi Zev Smith tells of visiting his rebbi Rav Schwab of Monsey zt"l on chol hamoed. At that point, Rav Schwab was an invalid, couldn't get to shul. I don't remember exactly what Rabbi Smith said he said, or how he reacted, but it was clearly some dismay. Rav Schwab said, with great equanimity, that this is what Hashem wanted from him right now. So he is doing the ratzon Hashem by not being able to do everything he would like (and we're talking optimal asiyas hamtizvos) because this is where Hashem put him. Life is on His terms, not ours.

Tibadel bein chayim l'chayim, Tammy Karmel described her feelings after getting a hoist to transfer her from bed to chair, etc. and back. She said that she felt like a sack of potatoes, up in the air. It was very dehumanizing and upsetting. But then she realized, with great clarity, that she serves Hashem in her chair, and she serves Hashem up in the air in the hoist. That doesn't change.

I've thought of her line a LOT, in dealing with a number of annoying or less than optimal situations. I can serve Hashem from here too.

This is your avodah now. Hashem put you in this situation to serve Him just this way. You got very clear guidance. No, it's not easy. L'fum tzaara agra and because of that you might get a greater zechus eating HALACHICALLY than many of us will from fasting. Again, remember, you will be eating halachically. Can you imagine approaching this with curiosity and maybe a little excitement, that circumstances forced you to be living this page in the Mishnah Berurah/Shulchan Aruch/Torah, that you never imagined (ok, or wanted) having to do? But you. And beH you will do it well.