Not listening to your dr

amother

Peachpuff

Fri, Sep 22 2023, 9:43 am

amother Denim wrote:

Why wouldn’t you listen to your doctor?

Also shiurim is still fasting.

I agree that she should do whatever her rav and doctor say without second guessing but shiurim is not still fasting. They don't have kares like regular eating but are still forbidden d'oyraisah.

PinkFridge

Fri, Sep 22 2023, 9:44 am

amother Peachpuff wrote:

I agree that she should do whatever her rav and doctor say without second guessing but shiurim is not still fasting. They don't have kares like regular eating but are still forbidden d'oyraisah.

In this case, it's being mekayem pikuach nefesh which is doche.

amother

Hosta

Fri, Sep 22 2023, 9:47 am

amother Peachpuff wrote:

I agree that she should do whatever her rav and doctor say without second guessing but shiurim is not still fasting. They don't have kares like regular eating but are still forbidden d'oyraisah.

Its not literally fasting but it's the equivalent of fasting in that this is what Hashem wants her to do this Yom Kippur. He put the words in her doctors mouth and He put the words in her ravs mouth.

amother

Bellflower

Fri, Sep 22 2023, 9:47 am

amother OP wrote:

Error on the side of caution like sending me to the ER for any little thing when the ER doctors are always like everything is fine why did you come in, or making me do bloodwork every week when some patients on the meds I take do it once a month, just overall, she tends to be very cautious. Yes there are times she has saved my life and caught things early, but 9/10 times I find she puts limitations on me that my other doctors think are extraneous.

That's how precautions work. In medicine, workplace safety, engineering. When it comes to high stakes outcomes, most precautions wind up being unnecessary. Not just 9/10, but 99,999/100,000 or more. The problem is that you don't know until too late which ones were necessary.

For example, in retrospect, I know that every single time I ever wore a bicycle helmet as a kid was unnecessary because I never had a fall with impact to the head. It was thousands of bike rides, maybe tens of thousands. But I only know that now. Not knowing in advance of every bike ride, the right thing to do is wear the helmet.

amother

NeonGreen

Fri, Sep 22 2023, 10:10 am

If medically you need to eat or drink on yom Kippur, it is actually a mitzvah to eat and drink!

Also, we had a relative with a heart problem who fasted kn yomkippur when the doctor and the rav said not to and he died. So we don't play around when the rav says not to fast or to do shiurim. Also, shiurim does not break a d'oraita.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Mon, Sep 25 2023, 3:53 pm

amother Peachpuff wrote:

I agree that she should do whatever her rav and doctor say without second guessing but shiurim is not still fasting. They don't have kares like regular eating but are still forbidden d'oyraisah.

Rabbi Peachpuff, please verify that with your Rav. I think you are wrong. Drinking shiurim with a heter from a Rav is considered fasting.

amother

Silver

Mon, Sep 25 2023, 4:21 pm

B'Siyata DiShamaya wrote:

Rabbi Peachpuff, please verify that with your Rav. I think you are wrong. Drinking shiurim with a heter from a Rav is considered fasting.

She is right, I did shiurim last year after giving birth and so looked into it,
Doing shiurim means that you are not chiyuv kares for eating on Yom Kippur but you don't get a mitzvah that you fasted.
You might get a mitzvah for venishmartem meod but you aren't fulfilling the mitzvah of fasting yom kippur.
Not that this should put people off from doing the right thing, if your rav and doctor told you to do shiurim then that is what you're obligated to do and shouldn't feel guilty.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Mon, Sep 25 2023, 4:46 pm

amother Silver wrote:

Source? Because you are def putting pple off. Pple feel terrible having to drink shiurim when it is medically mandated. They feel guilty and horrible.
Drinking shiurim to save their lives is a mitzvah. They get that mitzvah which may be greater than the mitzvah of fasting - if your Rav told you you are not getting.
Why the need to point out that "you dont get a mitzvah". You get a mitzvah, and let Hashem work it out, he put us in the position and he will worry about the mitzvah tallying.

amother

Silver

Mon, Sep 25 2023, 5:56 pm

B'Siyata DiShamaya wrote:

My rav told me that last year when I asked him if I can do shiurim on Yom Kippur 8 days after giving birth. He was very certain that I should do shiurim despite the fact it's not considered like fasting.
A few people mentioned it is considered like fasting so I was just correcting them.
I'm sure you would get a mitzvah for venishmartem meod lenafshoseichem.
Why should it put people off? if it's correct thing to do shiurim it would be an aveira to fast.
Either way it is widely known that if you eat on erev Yom Kippur it's considered like fasting yom kippur.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Mon, Sep 25 2023, 6:02 pm

amother Silver wrote:

Totally different circumstances.

Ema of 5

Mon, Sep 25 2023, 9:17 pm

amother Silver wrote:

That’s not what I was told when I first started doing shiurim. I was told that shiurim are the minimum amount of intake for it to still be considered fasting. If it is considered that one is fasting, then it would be that you get the mitzvah.

Last edited by Ema of 5 on Mon, Sep 25 2023, 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

PinkFridge

Mon, Sep 25 2023, 9:18 pm

I hope everyone had a smooth fast and has a gut yohr.
To OP, I want to apologize for not adding the words, pending on your rav's psak. Of course the doctor's words carry weight but one still needs to run it by a rav. Yesterday afternoon, I heard Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz of YU say, on his Shabbos Shuva drasha (obviously not taped live) stress that even with a frum doctor, one must consult and go by a rav.

Ema of 5

Mon, Sep 25 2023, 9:20 pm

amother Silver wrote:

It’s off putting because it might make some people second guess whether or not they should follow their rav, if “it’s not considered fasting.” It might also make them question the psak or their rav. None of that is ok.

amother

Cappuccino

Mon, Sep 25 2023, 9:32 pm

Ema of 5 wrote:

That doesn’t mean we distort the truth. Emes is emes, even if it makes people uncomfortable. They should be discussing these issues with a rav and resolving the best way THEY need to serve Hashem.
Also, as an aside, a lot of people on this forum doing understand the extreme importance of fasting and think doing shiurim is just as good. Maybe it’s necessary for someone to defend the truth about it.

amother

Cappuccino

Mon, Sep 25 2023, 9:35 pm

Ema of 5 wrote:

And if they question following their rav bec they don’t like his psak, they have serious hashkafic issues. Everyone frum should know that you need to listen to what your rav paskens, and not be a chosid shoteh.

Ema of 5

Mon, Sep 25 2023, 9:46 pm

amother Cappuccino wrote:

But it’s not THe truth, it’s HER truth. So rather than telling all of those women who do shiurim that that aren’t actually fasting, she could have said “MY RAV said….”
My rav said it is considered fasting. That is MY truth. There is nothing to defend.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Mon, Sep 25 2023, 9:49 pm

amother Cappuccino wrote:

Way more chosid shotehs than you think.
Sorry but that's the truth.

amother

Snapdragon

Mon, Sep 25 2023, 9:49 pm

According to my Rav I didn't listen to my doctor and I fasted the full fast. I did prepare shiurim in case but BH I didn't need it.

My doctor is not Jewish so I did consult with a frum doctor for a second opinion and he said usually pregnancy is not a contra indication to fasting, but I could technically listen to my doctor.

Ema of 5

Mon, Sep 25 2023, 9:53 pm

amother Cappuccino wrote:

I’m not sure what you’re saying. Who said anything about not following a psak because they don’t like it? We are talking about someone who was told that she should do shiurim, and that is considered fasting. Someone coming here and saying “we’ll actually that’s not true” might cause someone else to question if her rav was correct in his psak. Nothing to do with not liking his psak. That’s a different issue entirely.