IM modern orthodox - AMA.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:29 am

amother Calendula wrote:

I come from a family with a lot of MO (on both my side and my husbands)
We have all spectrums, from wearing shorts and short sleeves to covering their hair and more tznius than a lot of my jpf neighbors
Where do you see yourself fall?
(Btw, of the more modern, less tznius, rely on every kula and doesn’t ask their rav anything relatives, their children are either very yeshivish OR completely not frum. The only MO relatives of mine who’s mesorah continued to the next generation is the much frummer ones and I see almost no difference in their hashkafa than mine

Interesting because I actually know of many very MODERN orthdox who have children and grandchildren who are just like them. I also know of one family where one child became chassidish Smile

In other words, everyone is allowed to go their own way.
Personally I grew up modern orthodox. We all wear skirts, cover hair, some more than others, some cover elbows, some just above elbows (As we were taught there is a shita to that) sandals.
Personally I became a little bit more modern than my family and how we were growing up, but still follow all the halachot how I learned them.

amother

Midnight

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:30 am

WhatFor wrote:

Not OP. And depending on the specifics of what you mean by short or uncovered, that might vary by community. But, with respect to most MO communities I'm familiar with, people don't generally get kicked out based on how they dress (outside of school). So you might see people welcome in the community who don't dress the way the rav does or even the way most people in that community do. That doesn't mean the rav endorses that particular outfit they're wearing that day, they just endorse the idea that that person is a Jew and a human who deserves to be treated with respect and welcome among their community.

I like to think most of us endorse the idea that all Jews deserve respect. Are there rabbis in your community who say it’s ok to wear short sleeves, or not cover your hair? Like is that something they offer heterim for?

amother

Calendula

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:31 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Interesting because I actually know of many very MODERN orthdox who have children and grandchildren who are just like them. I also know of one family where one child became chassidish Smile

Thanks for answering!!
Curious where you grew up. All my relatives who are MO live in Staten Island, flatbush, and a few in five towns
I wonder if it depend on the area. My Staten Island relatives are the frummer ones, the flatbush are the least frum, and the five towns are in between

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:33 am

amother Midnight wrote:

I wonder if this makes it challenging for you or others in your community. Almost like the identity is diluted bec it’s such a spectrum does mo even have a real meaning to it? Isn’t it confusing? What’s the uniting principle that defines mo these days? Like a yu rabbi who is considered mo is certainly very different in terms of how they practice than a woman going mixed swimming who considers herself mo.

No, not confusing at all. Its wonderful that not everyone is the same. Nothing is diluted. Its like one big salad.
I grew up that modern orthodoxy meant liing a torah life style (that means different things to different people obviously) while living in the modern world. So for example, we might go to a baseball game, but my father would always find a way to daven mincha. OR we have internet. And we are fine with that. Or going to university has a lot of merit. Things like that. To me thats what defines modern orthodoxy. And different people will put emphasis on different parts of modern and orthodox. And that is what units us, our simiarities ANDD our differences Smile

I personally would hate to have eeryone uniform.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:34 am

amother Midnight wrote:

Hair covering I personally do not know. But I did grow up with the shita that one can wear a shirt just above the elbow. And many do.

WhatFor

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:34 am

amother Midnight wrote:

Modern orthodoxy is an actual hashkafah. It's not simply someone who is orthodox but happens to be modern. But a YU rabbi may have someone in his congregation who does go swimming in mixed company, and he's not going to alienate her over it because he doesn't seek to control her life.

And I don't find it confusing to have a spectrum within a community. Not all rabbanim need to agree and hold the exact same thing and that's fine.

amother

Zinnia

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:35 am

Do you ever feel like you’re taking the easy way out in yiddishkeit?

Do you admire those who have stricter standards being that it’s definitely harder?

Do you think our Avos and Imahos were MO or UO? (I know they were not in any “group” and very accepting of everyone but if they’d be alive today where would they fit in better...)

singleagain

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:36 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I personally would hate to have eeryone uniform.

Oh my gosh this 100%. I also growing up as modern orthodox. And then at some point it seemed that people were placing the emphasis on the modern instead of the orthodox.

Now I tend to tell people that I am an orthodox person who lives in and takes advantage of the modern world.

Last edited by singleagain on Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:37 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Calendula

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:36 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I personally would hate to have eeryone uniform.

See that’s the thing that I was saying before. Most of us in yeshivish lite/jpf circles are the same. I think we just maybe value other things also maybe? Like mesorah, learning Torah lshma, and stronger tznius for women.
Do you agree or disagree?
(I really hope I’m not being disrespectful, as I said I have tons of relatives who are MO, but I don’t discuss these things with them)

amother

Midnight

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:37 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I personally would hate to have eeryone uniform.

We are “yeshivish” and do all those things too. We go to sports games, have internet, and kids go to college. Not sure that is what makes us different than mo

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:38 am

amother Zinnia wrote:

No, I do not feel that I am taking the easy way out of judaism. (and just so you know, thats a bit insulting actually). Not everyone lives with chumrot or even wants to live with chumrot.

Im not going to get into those that live stricter lives. Thats not about MO and will only make the thread go downhill.

I dont think the imahot or avot would be any stream of judaism today, to be honest. When there became so many different factions of religious jews, it broke us apart. I think the emahot and avot would be horrified, to be honest.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:41 am

amother Calendula wrote:

MO people also value mesora, learning torah l'shma and tznuit (this one may be just differently than you. I learned the halachot of tzniut differently to you, for sure)

And thank you for asking in a respectful way Smile

I really wanted to start a thread and be able to answer questions, as long as the questions were respectful. Smile

tichellady

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:49 am

amother Goldenrod wrote:

Does your community willingly ignore the halachos of tnzuis or do you rabbinic just passkey differently

(Please don't give me flak on my question- I'm asking out of curiosity not out of criticism)

I would say neither. Many modern orthodox rabbis are not going to be focused on what women should wear. It’s just not a focus. If a woman asks, they will answer or refer her to a female teacher to discuss. Many women will dress in a way that feels modest to them based on their community but doesn’t follow a strict guideline. There are definitely women who dress immodestly and they probably know it’s not what a rabbi would say is ok but their self image is important to them and this isn’t something they are focusing/working on

amother

Cerulean

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:50 am

amother Midnight wrote:

We are “yeshivish” and do all those things too. We go to sports games, have internet, and kids go to college. Not sure that is what makes us different than mo

The difference IMO would be in the attitude. Certain MO gedolim saw tremendous inherent value in knowledge and in capturing and expressing the human experience. Not just as a means toward parnassah, treating diseases, or inventing useful new devices, but as inherently valuable. Not just science, math, economics, and professional training, but also literature and the arts.

Today there is a spectrum within the MO world, and many on the rightward end don't see much inherent value in secular education, but only see value where it can be practically useful, such as in medicine, engineering, and so on. There is definitely overlap with the yeshivish world in this area.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:51 am

amother Calendula wrote:

I am not going to say where I grew up, but it was not in any of those places.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:55 am

staten islander wrote:

I think another important value in the MO world is self sufficiency. People try to plan their education/careers in a way that allows them to cover tuition. Op,what do you think?

My friends who are MO have all different types of jobs. Some have very well paying jobs, some have jobs they are passionate about but dont make so much, and others are just making it.
Im not really sure that people are planning their careers with tuition in mind when they are starting university at 17, 18 years old. You think they are?

amother

Hibiscus

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:00 pm

Honest question: how is halacha taught as a subject in school if it's not seen as uniform across the board for everyone? Which seforim and sources are used to teach halacha to students and how is that done without offending those who are more lenient?

heidi

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:03 pm

As a MO woman in a MO community I do have to admit that I also question the tzniyut standards in my neighborhood. I learned and follow halacha, not chumra. I do have a difficult time with really short/sleeveless, skirts that graze the thighs, totally uncovered hair of married women. I am pleased they feel comfortable in my shul/community, but would be interested in their rationale. The 1 person I did ask said she didn't cover her hair out of anger at G-d, but really wanted her daughters to cover their hair. They all do.

amother

Emerald

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:10 pm

amother NeonGreen wrote:

Open Orthodox puts themselves into the Modern Orthodox category. Avi Weiss is the Rabbi of an OU synagogue and a former YU faculty Rabbi. Does MO reject OO?

YU, as in the Yeshiva rejects OO and YCT. I heard this from a Rabbi who is a graduate of YU and closely associated. Why wouldn't they? YU has a Rosh Yeshiva who is recognized is a Talmid Chacham by Torah Jewry in the USA. OO denies some of the 13 Principles of Faith like Torah MiSinai. No Orthodox considers them Orthodox.