IM modern orthodox - AMA.

amother

Calendula

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:12 pm

heidi wrote:

As a MO woman in a MO community I do have to admit that I also question the tzniyut standards in my neighborhood. I learned and follow halacha, not chumra. I do have a difficult time with really short/sleeveless, skirts that graze the thighs, totally uncovered hair of married women. I am pleased they feel comfortable in my shul/community, but would be interested in their rationale. The 1 person I did ask said she didn't cover her hair out of anger at G-d, but really wanted her daughters to cover their hair. They all do.

This is it!
We all understand people not following halacha because they aren’t in a place that they feel they could, or they simply don’t want to. But I’m curious how people rationalize these halachos if they hold they are actually following the halacha

amother

Cerulean

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:16 pm

As an MO woman in a mostly RW community, I see questionable practices by people in all segments of our community. I don't question it at all, since that is human nature.

As a matter of fact, I am currently learning mishnayos maseches demai with one of my children, and the entire maseches exists because a substantial minority of Jews simply didn't bother with separating maaser rishon, terumas maaser, or maaser sheni. Even though terumas maaser is a huge problem halachically. These weren't people who were OTD, they weren't mechallel Shabbos, didn't run around eating pork. In fact, they were known to separate terumah gedola pretty consistently. Nobody wanted to kick them out of the community. But an entire subset of TSBP had to be created to work around them.

Sometimes people are lax beyond any reasonable halachic view. It's always existed everywhere and always will. Sometimes they rationalize their laxity and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they don't know better or they don't realize fully the halachic significance.

amother

Pansy

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:17 pm

ROFL wrote:

I am not the OP but I don’t think we “reject” anyone

OO does not follow the all of the same values that I do. But they are Jews striving to be the best they can be. And that is what Judaism is all about.
Listen at Har sinai Moshe did not wear a black hat or a shtreimel he wore a loose fitting cloth like head covering. But do I reject all people from Monroe and lakewood for going against Moshe derech?

Things evolve in Judaism , even if people don’t want to believe it
I think that respect your fellow jew ( and even not Jews ) is the most important thing

Do you accept reform in your schools and shuls too? Open orthodox is more like reform in practice than any other type of orthodox.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:20 pm

amother Midnight wrote:

We are “yeshivish” and do all those things too. We go to sports games, have internet, and kids go to college. Not sure that is what makes us different than mo

Fair enough. So what do YOU think makes a MO persona nd a yeshivish person different? Smile

amother

Pansy

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:24 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Fair enough. So what do YOU think makes a MO persona nd a yeshivish person different? Smile

I think it's the hashkafa that sets it apart. Yeshivish is torah first and then fit the internet, college, and other things into a torah life in a way that doesn't contradict, and MO sees torah as torah and other things as things in themselves that don't have to be seen through a torah lens.

amother

Lilac

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:24 pm

Who started modern orthodoxy? Where did it start? Are there different types of modern orthodoxy depending on its roots and location?

My husband's father grew up modern orthodox. His parents were frum.in America at a time when almost nobody else was. Furthermore he went on to learn after high school (if I remember correctly) and it wasn't respected at all then. He was part of Young Israel. He was practically a Rabbi and when Yidden came from Europe who had more Mesorah and knew more than him he felt very hurt (that's my understanding according to my husband). My husband's father went to learn in Israel against his parents wishes.. I'm not sure if he went to college. He learned all of Shas at a very young age and left the modern orthodox world. His two sisters were/are less Frum than their parents and I think that was a point of contention as they became adults.

My husband has an interesting viewpoint of modern orthodoxy because of this and I wanted to hear your thoughts, being that you live in Israel and how this story matches what you know of modern orthodoxy.

Thanks a lot! I never met his grandparents or his father unfortunately.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:25 pm

amother Pansy wrote:

Interesting and I think I agree, at least to a certain extent Smile

Just different.

Last edited by shabbatiscoming on Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Mauve

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:25 pm

amother Pansy wrote:

Do you accept reform in your schools and shuls too? Open orthodox is more like reform in practice than any other type of orthodox.

Open Orthodox isn't at all like Reform in practice.

Reform Jews typically aren't interested in joining Orthodox shuls - true across the spectrum.

Cheiny

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:30 pm

amother Crocus wrote:

Please explain the difference between mo that going to beach in bikini, and not shomer negiah vs mo that dresses fully tznius and keeps everything same as other types of circles.

There are plenty of people from every different segment within orthodoxy who don’t fully abide by whichever halachos they deem too difficult or they are tested with.

This isn’t exclusive to modern orthodoxy. I know many MO people who most everyone would consider “more frum” than some who identify as yeshivish or chassidish or whatever. Everyone is tested in different areas. Some with tznius, some with honesty in business, some with morality, shmiras einayim, lashon hara, etc. None of us knows which aveirah is worse than another.

Wearing black and white doesn’t make someone more frum, and considering oneself MO doesn’t make them less observant.

Generalizations aren’t a good thing.

amother

Mauve

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:30 pm

amother Lilac wrote:

What decade did your FIL grow up in? There has been Orthodox life in America for quite some time.

amother

Vermilion

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:31 pm

amother Zinnia wrote:

Do you ever feel like you’re taking the easy way out in yiddishkeit?

Do you admire those who have stricter standards being that it’s definitely harder?

Do you think our Avos and Imahos were MO or UO? (I know they were not in any “group” and very accepting of everyone but if they’d be alive today where would they fit in better...)

Many of us are Modern Orthodox because we believe that is the community in which we can have the highest level of Torah observance. I personally might not fit in so well with any community, but at least in the Modern Orthodox community I can follow Torah u’mitzvos better than anywhere else. I’m not in this community because it’s easy. I’m here because I am serving Hashem as best as I can.

amother

Pansy

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:32 pm

amother Mauve wrote:

Open Orthodox isn't at all like Reform in practice.

Reform Jews typically aren't interested in joining Orthodox shuls - true across the spectrum.

Their practice and outlook is the same. Take what we think is logical and fits into our lives, change it around to make us feel happy and throw the rest away.

synthy

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:33 pm

amother Zinnia wrote:

I will say, I used to think MO have it easier vs. my chassidish lifestyle. A chassidish bachur barely has any outlet. No sports, movies, even social life is more restricted.

But at one point I realized that in a way, MO have it so much harder than us. To juggle yiddishkeit and culture and still remain religious is a huge feat. Kol hakavod!

amother

Mauve

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:34 pm

amother Pansy wrote:

Their practice and outlook is the same. Take what we think is logical and fits into our lives, change it around to make us feel happy and throw the rest away.

They are completely different movements. Are you on attack here?

tichellady

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:35 pm

amother Zinnia wrote:

Never. It doesn’t appeal or speak to me at all but I think we are all different and need dIfferent things. I think that the avot and imahot were so different in terms of culture that I can’t imagine them today at all in our society

tichellady

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:36 pm

amother Hibiscus wrote:

Honest question: how is halacha taught as a subject in school if it's not seen as uniform across the board for everyone? Which seforim and sources are used to teach halacha to students and how is that done without offending those who are more lenient?

My modern orthodox school has haredei teachers so it was very confusing the way it was taught and rather not ideal

There were certain things that I thought were taught well. Like waiting between meat and milk and how there are different opinions in different communities. It’s not hard to show all the different opinions in Halacha

Last edited by tichellady on Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

Cheiny

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:39 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Modern orthodoxy is a large continuum. You have people who keep every single halacha as they were taught. And you also have people who learned halacha but do not keep it. And you haev people who learn halacha differently to the next person and they keep it. And you have people who choose to keep xyz and not abc. Thats the continuum.

As with every group among Orthodox Judaism.

I think we have to look at people more as individuals and not as a whole group that operates uniformly across the board.

Some choose to follow the way they were brought up and how their parents and grandparents observed, some choose on their own to observe how they see fit or are comfortable with, some intentionally choose not to observe because they don’t want to or it’s too difficult for them.

But this is the same across the board, imho, within every segment and group among orthodox Jewry.

If we chose to generalize, I’m sure every one of us can name certain weaknesses in observance that seem to be exclusive to specific groups. Some may struggle more with dress, some with honesty in business, etc. I don’t see any benefit or purpose in doing so… but point is it’s not MO that should be pointed out as being the ones who are weak in certain areas of observance when everyone has their own struggles, some more obvious than others.

amother

Lilac

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:40 pm

amother Mauve wrote:

What decade did your FIL grow up in? There has been Orthodox life in America for quite some time.

If he was alive now he would be maybe 110. Not sure but somewhere close. Is that not when Young Israel started? Is that one type of modern orthodoxy? Now that I'm thinking about it my mother's father grew up modern orthodox and he became very Yeshivish. He would be middle 90's.. But he lived out of town and I don't even know if he went to a Jewish school at all as a kid. As a teen he went to Torah Vadaas and became Yeshivish. He dedicated his entire life to Torah.

tichellady

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:42 pm

amother Pansy wrote:

Their practice and outlook is the same. Take what we think is logical and fits into our lives, change it around to make us feel happy and throw the rest away.

If you a such an expert on open orthodoxy then can you explain why they started a new movement if reform Judaism already exists?

Please don’t write about some thing which you know nothing about. No one is asking you to join their movement but that also doesn’t make it OK to spread nasty lies. Fwiw, I wouldn’t even call it a movement. More like an attitude and approach that is trying to be more welcoming for People who may feel uncomfortable and intimidated and judged by the orthodox community.