Is Kollel the root cause??

amother

Melon

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:30 pm

In my case, Kollel was not the problem. The reason we struggle is because of the yeshivas dh went to that did not teach him English. I put him through a GED program, and I had to teach him the difference between a comma and a period. I had to teach him how to spell simple words like "head". And I had to teach him multiplication and division.

He's not stupid. He learned fairly quickly from me. But he was never taught these things in school.

Chayalle

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:30 pm

amother OP wrote:

At the end of the day regardless of the personalized values you try to impart, by raising your sons in the yeshivish world today you are raising them in a society which does not hold
Men accountable for financial responsibility. And regardless, too many of the parents are brainwashed as well.

There are some messages that boys absorb in their home, and parents should not wash their hands of this responsibility.
I've seen parents who raise their sons to never lift a finger, and to never contribute to the family, and to never worry about their own expenses. I blame them much more than the Kollel system.
I grew up with a very close friend whose brothers are of the elite of the Kollel system - One a RY, one a Rosh Kollel, very brilliant young men and great in Torah.
I remember them cleaning their mother's house for Pesach (my friend was the youngest. Her big brothers were the ones shlepping, scrubbing, and cleaning).
They have a work ethic that their mother ingrained in them. They aren't lazy, and they aren't the ones taking their wives for granted.

amother

Wheat

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:30 pm

amother OP wrote:

This is somewhat true. What's with this idea of finding a woman who will support your average son? Is he really really going to be shteiging all day? I know far too many people looking for this kind of support and their sons are not going to be rabbanim, serious serious kollel yungerman or roshei kolll etc.

This is wrong.

And again, I love the idea of men being able to learn all day. I'm not bashing it's importance. I just think the system promoting this must change.

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:31 pm

amother Cerulean wrote:

Idk about anyone else, but I have a standard kesubah and we consider it my husband's responsibility to support the family financially. That means that if I would decide to be a SAHM, his job would be to figure out how to cover our expenses or lower them.
(we've been in kollel for 6 years)
also, I don't claim to know how Hashem calculates schar, but you do get credit for effort. If I think my husband is learning in kollel and really he's taking a nap under the coats in the coatroom, I assume I still get schar for my work. I would miss out on other benefits of Torah learning, like its effects on the person and home, but it's something

Ok, and what happens if next month you decide you want your husband to go to work? How quickly will it happen? Are you saying you would quit immediately? How long would it take until he can cover expenses? If ever?

This about it realistically. Because I know far too many families who were very happy staying in kolllel for 4, 6, 8 years and thought it was all working out beautifully until suddenly it wasn’t. And that’s when reality hits.

Unigala

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:31 pm

amother OP wrote:

I cannot disagree with this more. it maybe is dependent on the men you know in your life but I would never say that society does not hold men responsible for financially supporting their families.

I have very few friends/family where the wife fully handles the responsibility and they are the exception not the rule - and looked at as such.

amother

Vermilion

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:33 pm

amother OP wrote:

I'm going to answer this. We are chasidish, and dh is still in kollel half day.
Maybe it is different, because our boys get married younger?
Responsibility was always his. My income was never enough, he went to well paid early morning and evening kollelim to supplement our income and staying in his first choice, lesser paid kollel am and pm. He has verbally acknowledged my efforts.

We are bh not in debt. It probably helps that we had children later than our peers and don't have that many yet. Yes preschoolers don't have the teen needs, not in terms of tuition or clothing with tznius requirements. No Bar mitzvas yet.

BH Bh we are very thankful that dh can up keep 3 sedarim and day and bring in a respectable pay, which was necessary shortly after the birth of our first.

Again, the burden is his, by additional sedarim or later investments etc.

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:35 pm

Unigala wrote:

I’m referring specifically to the mainstream Lakewood kollel community, idk what community you belong to.

Also, ultimately if a mother rises her son to be a financial provider, what she is doing at the end of the day is raising him to not be a part of the kollel system and it’s values. Which would make him and her very different than the yeshivish community. Which just proves my point.

amother

Wheat

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:36 pm

amother Vermilion wrote:

Chassidim are actually doing very well with all of this. From what I understand, the men absolutely know that the burden of finances is on them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is very respectable in the chassidish community to work and to be koveah itim.

I think what OP is talking about it more of a litvish kollel system issue.

amother

Springgreen

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:36 pm

mha3484 wrote:

But we raise our boys. We can all say go work at a camp during bein hazmanim I am not paying for your road trip to wherever. Or encourage them to make money doing something else we can make a societal change. I think we as parents have to do more vs saying its the system and putting our hands up.

As a BY grad, with brothers who also went through the same system, the boys are told that if you start college before getting married, no good girl will look at you. And the girls are told that if you want to marry a quality boy, no quality boy will start college before getting married. So it's not quite accurate that parents can educate their kids their own way. Remember, these boys are dorming for several years (at least) before getting married, and their rebbeim have much stronger ability to influence them at that point than their parents.

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:36 pm

amother Cappuccino wrote:

Being lazy or entitled is not a value.
Societal expectations are a completely different piece. If boys are raised not to feel financial responsibility it's one thing. But neither my husband, brothers or sons are raised that way. They are raised to feel an immense responsibility to learn and a gratitude to their wives for allowing that. If where you live that has switched to being entitled and not feeling responsibility, you have a choice to make.

You seem to feel very resentful - maybe many people are screwed over, I don't know a lot of them, but just as many are not.

You just said outright that your husband and brothers were raised with an immense responsibility to learn and a gratitude to their wives for allowing that- namely, for their wives working to support them. Tell me how that isn’t the same thing as them not being raised with financial responsibility?

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:41 pm

amother Stonewash wrote:

No, I don't think so. I think a lot stems from young couples getting married before they are ready to support themselves fully and on the level that it seems to be expected to begin married life nowadays. Expectations are too high and everyone "deserves" to start off in a nicely furnished apartment, with expensive jewelry, nice wardrobe and other items that in the past were things that a couple would work towards and do on their own deeper into their marriage, not to mention paying rent and often college tuition if one of the couple is still in school. These expectations don't seem to be relegated only to the kollel set.

I don’t think marrying young is the root cause. Just like young kollel couples take advantage of those first few years of support/lower expenses so they can stay in kollel, they can take advantage of those first few years of support/lower expenses to proactively work on a plan for prnnassah

amother

Wheat

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:42 pm

amother Springgreen wrote:

This is also part of the issue when we teach our daughters how kollel is the best and something to strive for.

They turn down amazing amazing young men who would actually be prefect for them! So now these same boys will go into learning full time when maybe they shouldn't because they can't find a suitable life partner.

What a terrible cycle! These boys aren't doing what they should be doing, to marry girls who are looking for guys they shouldn't be looking for. Had girls only been taught the importance of a responsible husband with good middos who care to learn torah at any moment he can, they would have found each other and both been doing what they needed to be doing!

amother

Springgreen

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:43 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I dont think the OP is complaining of young kollel men being lazy, at all. Nor of them milking the system. Or "warming the bench".

I understand OP to be referring to the idea that everyone who is "quality" is of course learning in kollel after marriage for years, without getting an education/trade you support his family, and should only start thinking about training for a job after he has a number of children and his wife wants to stop working. But she can't stop working even if he goes to work then because there is no way he can earn enough to support the family.

Or maybe I just added my own view of the situation...

amother

Petunia

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:45 pm

I dont think its anything to do with the schooling system but everything to do with how we bring up our kids!

Dh has been in kollel for nearly 8 years, we dated with having in mind that he will learn as long as we can manage. we dont get a penny from the Tzedoka organisations in our area even though they have offered if we need. parents are not supporting us since a year after we got married and even then was just to cover rent. we have managed to save over the last 7 years towards a downpayment. we live in Israel so we dont get benefits from the government for low income. (this year we hardly got arnona discount since dh work became legal)
My husband knows that he is the one responsible and when I left a toxic work enviroment when my 2nd was born 4.5 years ago he took on an evening job. thankfully soon after I got a job from home but he decided to keep working so I dont have to work as hard.
We are so grateful everyday he is able to stay in kollel and he knows as the expensizes go up he may have to leave.
it happened to his father who learns half day and is a sofer from when the family started growing, mil didnt have a proper job until the kids were older. he was taught that its his responsibility to work and its a bonus if I am happy to work instead, his siblings are on the same line, they take on odd jobs to help when needed.
He comes home from kollel and helps put the kids to bed, helps with laundry and dishes when im not managing and is 99% of the time the one to clean the living room once the kids go to bed. making the kids food for school is half half with who ever finishes work first. he most times mops the floor.

The problem is when men 'go to learn' because they dont want to commit to having a job, so its easier but they dont have the love of torah they have the love for an easy life and even if they would have been brought up against the kollel system they would dabble their toes in different areas of work not really getting a proper job.

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:51 pm

amother Springgreen wrote:

Exactly. My comments about kollel being the “root cause” of so many financial/familial issues are not relying on the fact that the kollel husband is “lazy”.

amother

White

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:00 pm

you know we can blame whoever we want... but its hard to point to one thing and say THIS is the problem across the board

I'm living this. my husband is a mildly anxious person and big decisions are a huge deal for him.

he has admitted to me that he sometimes feels he is still learning because it is easier and more comfortable for him and the thought of taking such a huge leap and all the many unknowns and decisions that come along with it are frightening and overwhelming to him.

Personally, I think this is a personality issue that he has to work on and im grateful that he is self aware enough to be honest. I cannot say that this is a widespread problem because its so specific to dh personality.
we sat down and really took a hard look at ourselves and decided together to push forward in kollel for a little longer.

amother

Wheat

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:04 pm

amother White wrote:

I don't think OP is saying this is a problem for everyone.

I think the idea is that kollel life should not be the standard way we operate. It should be standard that men go to work and are very serious about learning every day at night, morning, shabbos, when they have some time. It should be that SOME men who are really really cut out for kollel life are the ones who defy the norm and sit and learn day in and day out. We need these men! It's just not the right thing for every man and that's more or less how it is marketed.

Unigala

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:07 pm

amother Wheat wrote:

100% agree