bachur dies & people sit in judgement

Mrs. XYZ

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 11:20 am

pacifier wrote:

so if the driver wasn't drunk, was 20, why is everyone blaming the drinking?
on the contrary, the kid who was drunk and didn't drive should be praised that he wasn't driving.

so, anyone knows what caused the accident?

The article itself doesnt mention anything about anyone being drunk, but people claim that the driver was also drunk.

mugsisme

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 11:31 am

There were comments that Vos Is Naies went in and edited. One in specific said, Where are the parents? Are they crying now? It was so hurtful.

I believe that while everyone said very valid points here, there is truly a time and a place to read it all. I want to share an email I got from another bereaved parent:

Quote:

BLANKS's son was killed crossing the street right in front of their house and the boys' yeshiva. They are now doing a lot of construction on that street to slow down traffic, put in pedestrian islands, etc.

There have been a lot of complaints on our community listserve about how bad the whole plan is, how it is more dangerous now than before, etc. Some discussion came up about the kid who was killed crossing the street and how it was his fault for dashing out, not the fault of the speeding driver. Oh my gosh, I was cringing reading that and thinking of BLANK and her family. Finally BLANK wrote something herself on the listserve. People can be so unbelievably stupid, can't they??? Reading the list you sent last night made me think of all that and the additional pain people can cause......

I changed the name to protect the family. But don't tell me we can write whatever we want, because the family might not see it. IMHO, this is the place for people to write about the boy who died, not the cause of death.

Doesn't anyone believe that Hashem decided this boy would die on this day? And if he hadn't been in a car that he would have died some other way?

DefyGravity

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 11:33 am

pacifier wrote:

one cannot blame an accident on a passenger being drunk (as long as he wasn't actively disturbing the driver), the same way that one wouldn't blame it on a passenger who was sleeping!!!

Most people are saying that the driver was drunk.

greenfire

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 11:39 am

while Hashem has the ultimate control ... we must do our hishtadlus and make efforts ... we don't blatantly walk across a 3 lane highway nor do we leap from buildings ... why do we drink to the point of killing ourselves - yes the tragic death might save other lives - but not if you shove it under the rug - if you openly discuss how it happened ...

and please DO NOT blame the poor suffering parents who are already at a loss !!!

mugsisme

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 11:51 am

Green, true. But, the fact is, this guy DID blame the parents in his first comments. And as I have said to him repeatedly, the kids think this guy is socially [crazy]. Their word. I speak with the kids. They go to school here; they are my son's friends. How in the world can anyone think that teens will see their friend buried, and not be affect by it? This guy is nuts, and he is so set on spouting off his information that he is failing to hear that now is not the time.

I was told that the driver will be charged with vehicular manslaughter if it is proven he was drunk at the time. So that remains to be seen.

All I know is that I am not the only bereaved parent who is very upset by what is said. It is very easy to blame the parents. I have a DD who is on the wild side. She was told by her principal that we, her parents, are not good parents. How do you think it makes us feel? Everyone is so quick to judge others. Let's let Hashem be the final judge.

Clarissa

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 12:29 pm

mugsisme wrote:

Doesn't anyone believe that Hashem decided this boy would die on this day? And if he hadn't been in a car that he would have died some other way?

Whether or not God decided this boy would die on that day, the fact is that he got into the car with a boy who may have been drinking and driving. We can't shrug at really bad decisions and say, "Whatever, it's God's will what will be." We make the best decisions we can, we teach our children the same. Human responsibility exists. If this boy had crashed into another car and killed a family, do you think that their surviving relatives would just figure that God was ready for them to die? Trust me, the family of the boy who died will be filing a lawsuit, and not figuring it was his time.

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:17 pm

Tefila wrote:

Quote:

he passed away, and people are just saying how terrible it is to drink and drive

There is an Aibeshter in this world and I know of people who are 80yr olds and still smoke and are bouncing healthy seniors . Same with kids who were neglected left on the streets to die and are now productive adults in society.
There was a women I knew who survived the concentration camps and all, had children and grandchildren and once on her daily walk got knocked down by a bus driver.
SO for someone to say it's because one drinks and drives these things happen, I will say since when did anyone appooint them G_D Exclamation

I haven't seen the posting being referred to so I'm not discussing that story, but that last sentence of yours I find rather odd.
so if someone jumps of a cliff, I can't say he died because he jumped of a cliff?

Clarissa

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:25 pm

Taken one step further, one would have to say that it was God's will that a young man got drunk, got behind the wheel of a car and caused the death of his young passenger. Nobody really feels that way. People make terrible, tragic mistakes. To shrug and say it's all God's will means we never have to take responsibility or use good judgment.

DefyGravity

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:46 pm

Code:

SO for someone to say it's because one drinks and drives these things happen, I will say since when did anyone appooint them G_D

Following this twisted logic we can say that murderers should all go free, because they were just acting as agents of G-d.

octopus

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 9:23 pm

I think the point is that one should not be so insensitive when others are in so much pain. You don't think the same thoughts flash through the bereaved family's heads? Why do ppl have to say such mean, painful things out loud? Would someone make that kind of a comment at a shiva call?

Mevater

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 9:32 pm

happy2BaMommy wrote:

There are some posters who regularly insist that those parents with problem children are themselves to blame for their troubles and backs it up with Seforim, Gedolim and psychology books, as painful as that is to some that read those posts, and nonchalantly make comments to the effect of- It's the truth- like it or not.

Clarissa

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 9:41 pm

happy2BaMommy wrote:

I knew a woman who died a horrible and very public death. I saw tons of comments on message boards that were rude and insensitive, and even made fun of the situation. Of course it wasn't easy for her family to see them, I imagine, but I hoped that the widower was smart enough to protect himself and their children. In today's open-air media world, we have to try not to look at these things. Hopefully the boys' families aren't reading this little article, nor its comments. They have much more important things to deal with.

octopus

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 9:46 pm

I think people feel less inhibited and less responsibility when they post their words online. I highly doubt those people would be saying those things to the family's face.

While the family should do what they can to protect themselves, it does not excuse those who say hurtful things.

Clarissa

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 9:50 pm

happy2BaMommy wrote:

I agree, but in this case, maybe some of the comments will keep some kid from drinking and driving tomorrow. If one life is spared, it's worth it, although I agree that people shouldn't be insensitive. But if someone is intoxicated and the cause of a vehicular death, it's an opportunity to educate other kids before they make the same mistake, and an opportunity to educate parents of frum children that they are not immune.

greenfire

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 9:57 pm

Clarissa wrote:

happy2BaMommy wrote:

exactly ...

Mevater

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 9:58 pm

Clarissa wrote:

But if someone is intoxicated and the cause of a vehicular death, it's an opportunity to educate other kids before they make the same mistake, and an opportunity to educate parents of frum children that they are not immune.

Please explain how blaming and humiliating a set of parents in the midst of the worst time of their lives, saves any child's life. Don't people with functioning minds know that 99% of parents do anything in their power to keep their kids safe?

Clarissa

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 10:02 pm

I don't believe in blaming or humiliating anyone, but I don't think it's wrong to point out that this was a case of DUI. I think there are frum parents who are deluding themselves into thinking that their family is safe from this kind of disaster. The notion that all parents need to watch their children and work to keep them safe is a good one to be reminded of sometimes. You never know who is reading that or something similar, and decides it's time to pull over that teenaged son or daughter and have a talk about responsible behavior. I can't imagine the agony of knowing that one's child caused the death of an innocent person. None of us should ever know how that feels, and sometimes it takes tough talk to drive the point home.

faigie

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 10:08 pm

people like to point fingers, becuase it makes them feel,,,,,,, that if they are perfect in all ways no bad will befall them.
got news. if this was the boys time to go,,,, he could have chocked on a piece of gum.
having said that we all know drinking and driving is hazardous behavior........ and the family does not need this shoved in their faces.