DL/Torani retention rates

amother

Cognac

Sun, Feb 25 2024, 12:12 am

amother Pewter wrote:

Someone brought the hesder example - that's totally different. If someone is old enough to put there life on the line, they are old enough to decide if they want to be frum or not. If they are using a phone on Shabbos, that's a decision that they made, and it is not fair to the rest of the group, who often sacrifice a lot to be in hesder and not deal with chilul shabbos.

In the real life example I gave, the other soldiers don't have to "deal with" this one soldier's chillul shabbat. He was alone on guard duty. Someone comes once or twice during his shift to make sure he's not asleep, and that he's ok (there's a radio, but still), and they see him using his phone. I don't know more details, but it's clear he was making an effort to keep his Shabbat phone use secret. Maybe he thought he was going to fall asleep if he didn't use his phone? Maybe his mom was in surgery and he knew secular family members would post updates?

I would feel differently if he were in the dining hall on Shabbat and got out his phone and started watching videos in front of everybody.

Let me ask: who is benefited by this "search and destroy" method of immediately expelling this soldier? Is it his fellow soldiers who didn't even know he was mechallel shabbat? How? It is not a Jewish sin to be in the mere presense of another sinner. It is true that Am Israel often receives collective punishment for the sins of some of its members, but since we did not stone the mechallel shabbat soldier (even with a sanhedrin it would not be done since there were no two witnesses and a warning), he is still alive, so we have 2 options:

1. He intended to engage in long term chillul shabbat. He was hiding it, now that he's in a secular troop he doesn't need to hide it = more avonot for Am Israel to bear.

2. He intended it to be a one time chillul shabbat (just this one time so I won't fall asleep, etc). IMO he would have benefitted more from staying in the religious program than he will from his punishment, even though his punishment may jar him and he will still try to keep Shabbat.

Why is there no conversation with a Rav? That may be able to actual rectify this young man's underlying problem that caused him to sin. If he were given a punishment of losing his next few leaves and a public apology, would that not serve as detriment to the other soldiers who may be tempted to use their phones when alone on guard duty? Why jump to the most extreme?

B'Syata D'Shmya

Sun, Feb 25 2024, 12:27 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Ill throw this question back and ask what about families that send to schools where computers/smart phones are not allowed, but theh secretly have them anyway? 🤔
And to actually answer your question, its just a dress code FOR school. Its literally like a uniform. Its worn just to school. Many people send to schools that have uniforms. The kids take those off when they come home. Same here. No difference.

Same question. No need to throw back.
The schools that have uniforms have dress standards too.
If you don't shtim with the dress code that the uniform is representing what message is that?

IMHO the uniform is a cop out solution for real chinuch. It doesn't teach the child anything. It's laziness on the part of the school.

amother

Almond

Sun, Feb 25 2024, 1:11 am

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

So what are you teaching your child when you have different rules/standards for school and home?

That different institutions have different standards, and when we are in an environment that has stricter standards than our own, we respect that and abide by them. And when we are in an environment that has looser standards than our own, we accept that and continue to maintain our own.

To thine own self be true, so to speak. It's not a bad philosophy.

amother

Almond

Sun, Feb 25 2024, 1:18 am

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

Modesty is also between adam lechaveiro - an untzniusdik girl is making herself a michshol to the men around her (and women as well who may be influenced).
Bullying is also between adam leMakom as we are all created in Hashems image and hurting another human being is hurting Hashem.

Oh please not that timeworn canard again. Let's blame women for men's lack of self-control. A woman should be modest for her own self respect, not because she's afraid of inflaming some h***y man's lust. And if a school were teaching my DD that she should dress modestly to avoid being a michshol to men, I would pull her out of there so fast, all they would see would be a blur.

amother

Coffee

Sun, Feb 25 2024, 3:55 am

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

You're overthinking the role of the school in educating our children.
As a parent you have to make sure that you're child has the right message about tznius...

There is no way to find a school which 100% matches your hashkafos, that's where so many people have got it wrong.
A uniform or dress code is the best and most efficient equaliser for students not to have to decide their own dress standards when at school, because the school is not here to reconcile all the different hashkafos or standards of all the kids at their school.
Especially in high school where kids start to express themselves through clothes more and might veer from their families standards, having a dress code is the best way to prevent that from becoming a huge issue at school.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Feb 25 2024, 5:40 am

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

But the families do gel with the idea of a dress code in school. Just because the kids might dress differently out of school doesnt mean the parents are not geling with the school hashkafa.
You obviously are not DL or MO because if you were this would not even be an issue.
So many dont dress exactly how the dress code is in these schools, but the students know they come to school in specific vlothing out of respect for the establishment.
And most DL schools dont have uniforms. They have dress codes.

amother

Dodgerblue

Sun, Feb 25 2024, 8:18 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

So the parents do or don't care about their children's dress outside of school? How do the parents want them to dress?

amother

Tuberose

Sun, Feb 25 2024, 8:34 am

amother Dodgerblue wrote:

So the parents do or don't care about their children's dress outside of school? How do the parents want them to dress?

Probably similar to the way the parents themselves dress on the frum-scale?
I'd like my kids to dress similar to me/dh.
We live in a DL community with a wide range of dress modes. If the school would enforce any dress code outside school, it would put people off, for either being too strict or too lax, depending on who you ask. Conformity is not a thing here.

ora_43

Sun, Feb 25 2024, 8:41 am

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

A Beis Yaakov school has to make the resources available if they are to accept a girl who doesnt have a BY background and home. I can tell you that many BY have done so and successfully. But it does require more work.

Practically speaking, what resources does it take to turn a 16-year-old girl who lives life one way into someone who lives life a different way? What resources will prevent her friends from thinking she's cool and wanting to be like her?

ora_43

Sun, Feb 25 2024, 8:46 am

amother Cognac wrote:

Let me ask: who is benefited by this "search and destroy" method of immediately expelling this soldier?

You're treating this as a question of religiosity. IE the ultimate goal is whatever path leads to more Torah observance.

But it's the army. The army's ultimate goal is whatever path leads to a stronger and more effective army.

It's much better for the army to have soldiers serve for 3 years rather than the 1.4 they do in Hesder. So it's better for them that any soldier who isn't actually so religious that a regular, mixed unit is going to be a difficult environment for him, not be in the Hesder track.

I don't know if that's the whole story, but it's a big factor that can't be overlooked.

amother

Cognac

Sun, Feb 25 2024, 9:10 am

ora_43 wrote:

Okay, I see that.

If it were my son who looked at his phone once on Shabbat, I'd still be upset that he got kicked out.

But at least if it's the military looking out for its own interests, saying "ooh goodie now we get you for an extra year and a half", that is more positive and less cold than if it comes from a religious representative who should be looking out for the soldier's religious welfare.

essie14

Sun, Feb 25 2024, 9:18 am

amother Tuberose wrote:

Exactly.
I don't cover my elbows. DD's school requires elbows to be covered in school. Outside of school DD chooses to dress like me. The school administrators see me dropping her off every day wearing short sleeves. Half the moms wear pants, which is not allowed for the girls either.
Half of the dads dont wear a kippah during the week, even to school events. The boys must wear a kippah in school but outside of school they probably do what their fathers do.

amother

Cognac

Sun, Feb 25 2024, 9:22 am

amother Dodgerblue wrote:

So the parents do or don't care about their children's dress outside of school? How do the parents want them to dress?

Most DL parents don't spend too much time being concerned about that. It seems to me like in the Haredi world, Modesty is 90% of Judaism for women, and Torah Study is 90% for men.

In the DL world, it's mitzvot and maasim tovim for both, and that includes modesty, but modesty is just one of the many, many, mitzvot. If I had to pick "The Big One" for DL, I'd say it would be Shabbat for both genders.

It doesn't mean we don't care whether our daughters (and sons!) are modest or not, but how much time do you spend worrying about the other mitzvot?

--"How do you want your sons to build their succot?"

"Uh , kosher succot?"

--"Yeah, but how can you be sure they'll be kosher?"

"Well, they'll see how DH and I build our succah, and the school will hopefully teach them the laws of succot."

--"But what if they still don't get it right? Shouldn't the school come to their houses and make sure they did it properly, and permanently expell anyone who didn't????"

That's kinda what this focus on dress feels like to us.

amother

Pearl

Sun, Feb 25 2024, 9:24 am

amother Cognac wrote:

Perfectly said!

B'Syata D'Shmya

Sun, Feb 25 2024, 1:56 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Why on earth would it matter what "kind" of Jew I am .These labels are used by people too lazy to get to know one another and appreciate the beautiful nuances that connect us and distinguish between us.

Dressing, as we learned in last weeks Parsha regarding the Kohanims clothing, is actually an important part of our identity. The uniform should be worn proudly as a sign of inclusion. The dress code as well.

amother

Coffee

Sun, Feb 25 2024, 1:57 pm

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

That's neither here nor there in the context of this discussion.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Feb 25 2024, 2:25 pm

amother Dodgerblue wrote:

So the parents do or don't care about their children's dress outside of school? How do the parents want them to dress?

Some do and some do not. In the DL world you have all kinds, just like in the MO world. Some parents have their girls cover their elbows and knees at all times. Others themselves are wearing pants and not covering their hair. Its a big mix. And everyone is ok with that. That is part and parcel of being part of the DL world. It wonderful. Nobody is judging anyone else based on the way they dress.