Palin's daughter pregnant!

Seraph

Wed, Sep 03 2008, 7:08 am

Raisin wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

princessleah wrote:

Finally, that quote from the Torah just says that you are allowed to kill in self-defense if someone is coming to kill you. It does not say ANYTHING about guns-- that would be quite amusing, since they had not been invented yet.

So you think it's OK to kill an attacker, but not OK to use a gun? What do you have against guns if not the fact that they are used to kill people?

they kill people with far greater ease than swords, or bows and arrows. The columbine shooters would not have killed nearly so many people without guns.

plus its easier to kill someone by accident with one.

so instead of having a gun, you should make sure that everyone knows how to do martial arts and archery and swordsmanship, and hope the guy coming to kill you doesnt actually have a more powerful weapon at his disposal.... if you wanna defend your right to life, you gotta be prepared to work hard for it! Rolling Eyes

Seraph

Wed, Sep 03 2008, 7:09 am

princessleah wrote:

Quote:

I guess I wasn't clear. I'm not talking about the death penalty; I'm talking about self defense and gun ownership. I don't understand how someone could agree that it's right to kill an attacker but wrong to own a gun. What is inherently morally wrong about owning a gun once you've agreed that it's OK to kill people in certain circumstances? I could understand arguing that guns are dangerous if improperly stored or used, but that's hardly reason to say there's a contradiction between being pro-life and supporting gun rights.

If someone is pro-life, that means that they believe in preserving human life, correct? Then why own a gun, which is nothing but an instrument of death, or at the very least great harm. That is what they are made for. Of course, it is a straw-man argument to say, I need a gun to protect myself from another attacker with a gun. If ALL guns were outlawed in the U.S., except for the police and military, there would be no attacker with a gun. 80% of criminals who use guns to commit crimes have obtained these guns through the black market or other illegal channels. These guns are produced, sold at gun shows, stolen from people who had bought them legally, sold to people with insufficient background checks, etc. If nobody was allowed to have them people would not need them for protection.

No, if no one was allowed to have one, only the criminals would get them by means of smuggling and other illegal methods, making sure that no one would be able to defend themselves against the criminals with guns. Really smart, no?

Seraph

Wed, Sep 03 2008, 7:19 am

ora_43 wrote:

chavamom wrote:

The problem is, in the case of an attack, the person is actually more likely to be killed with their own gun than to kill the attacker.

That's an interesting claim. Where did you hear that? Whatever the case, it may be true in the states, but it's not at all true over here.

Quote:

And that doesn't even bring into the equation all the gun accidents from having guns around. Or that people making a suicide attempt are vastly more likely to be "successful" if they live in a home with a gun - even a "secured" one. I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

If your point is that people ignorant of gun use and gun safety shouldn't own guns, then yes. If you're trying to argue that all people should have their access to guns restricted because some ignore basic safety protocol, I disagree.

I don't think people should be allowed to buy guns after nothing more than a 3-day waiting period and rudimentary background check. They should have to go through a gun safety course and a certain number of hours on a shooting range, just like those who want to drive have to watch hours of drunk driving horror story videos and spend however much time on the road with an instructor. But just as the occasional drunk driver who gets himself killed doesn't make me think nobody should have a car, the occasional idiot who blows his foot off while cleaning his gun doesn't make me think nobody should have a gun.

I like you ora.
Anyhow, my husband had a gun for about a year. My husband had to go to a 3 day course in which he learned all about how to use a gun, take care of it, proper safety, being able to identify who is a criminal and taught in what cases he is allowed to resort to using a gun (he was a security guard). and it is illegal to have a gun that is not locked up in a safe place when the liscensee isnt wearing it. yes, I think people should get psychological testing to make sure they're not criminal material, or suicidal before they should be allowed to get a gun liscense. but with all those above criteria completed, its unlikely people would die from gun accidents or willfull misuse such as suicide...

HindaRochel

Wed, Sep 03 2008, 7:39 am

Chani wrote:

When I was a toddler, my father was away for work very frequently - 48 hours on, 24 home, etc.. One night while he was gone, my mother heard a noise in my room. She went there, and discovered a man in the process of passing me out the window to another man. BH, BH, BH, my mother had my father's sidearm with her, and she told them to put me down or she'd blow their heads off. They dropped me and ran (never were captured).

I agree not everybody should have a gun. If somebody is nervous, they shouldn't have it. If somebody isn't going to take the time to learn how to shoot comfortably, then they shouldn't have one. If someone is an idiot enough not to keep them properly locked away, ditto. But there are times when one can come in handy.

OM!!!!! I am so glad your mother was there, heard and had the gun to save you!!!! That is so frightening!!!!

Clarissa

Wed, Sep 03 2008, 8:13 am

Chani, that story is chilling, and I'm so glad your mother was able to protect you.

That said, I recently read this NY Mag article that followed the trail of a handgun after it was used to shoot an innocent man. That story was chilling to me, as well. Not as chilling as someone I know and like being saved from God-knows-what, but chilling just the same. My problem is that, for every gun that's used in self-defense or to save a child from kidnappers (and that story is very rare), there are thousands that are being carried around for the wrong reasons, thousands that are improperly stored and greatly compromise the safety of anybody who is at risk for coming across them, thousands that might get into the wrong hands at some point in time and do harm. Many more stories about innocent people being killed because of bad people with guns than innocent people being saved because of good people having guns. Like all decisions made in society, we need to examine ALL of the stories, not just stories that instantly make us want to arm and protect ourselves, in spite of the freedom that affords unsavory people at the same time.

At any rate, I wonder how Palin's daughter's pregnancy is going. I wonder how Palin's speech will go tonight at the convention. I wonder if I'll find a good recipes for the two boxes of frozen artichoke hearts in my freezer...

ora_43

Wed, Sep 03 2008, 4:36 pm

Clarissa wrote:

That said, I recently read this NY Mag article that followed the trail of a handgun after it was used to shoot an innocent man. That story was chilling to me, as well. Not as chilling as someone I know and like being saved from God-knows-what, but chilling just the same. My problem is that, for every gun that's used in self-defense or to save a child from kidnappers (and that story is very rare), there are thousands that are being carried around for the wrong reasons, thousands that are improperly stored and greatly compromise the safety of anybody who is at risk for coming across them, thousands that might get into the wrong hands at some point in time and do harm. Many more stories about innocent people being killed because of bad people with guns than innocent people being saved because of good people having guns. Like all decisions made in society, we need to examine ALL of the stories, not just stories that instantly make us want to arm and protect ourselves, in spite of the freedom that affords unsavory people at the same time.

Clarissa, I doubt it's true that there are "thousands" of cases of improper gun use for each story of proper use. Most gun owners I've met are very responsible. That's anecdotal--statistically, well, it's very hard to find accurate statistics on gun use. Those who store guns improperly or use them to scare others (even in self-defense) aren't usually eager to admit it to researchers. Still, unless you have some kind of evidence that guns are overwhelmingly used for the wrong purposes, I don't think it's entirely honest to make such extreme claims.