Crying it out at nine months?

poemmom

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 11:53 am

Chavs, I don't think that's fair.
I never did CIO, but I can tell you the real problem for a lot of us who did not CIO is not how long it takes to go to sleep initially, but the rather the child waking up multiple times throughout the night to be put back to sleep by the parent each time. That is because many children become conditioned not to be able to fall asleep on their own, even after the normal wakings that occur to adults and children throughout the night as part of the sleep cycle.
I also want to point out that every child is different--I know this from personal experience! Some are naturally good sleepers, regardless of what you do. Children like that don't prove that "natural" techniques work.

GAMZu

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 12:08 pm

To lie on the floor for 20 minutes till the kids fall asleep is not nearly as uncomfortable as crying for an hour. How's that? Smile

Quote:

I am willing to be tired or to make that extra effort to get my kid to sleep and it might take more then 5 minutes but hey I am their mother thats what we do, I want them to learn the lesson from they are babies that I am there for them.

It all comes down to the mother not wanting to be uncomfortable or tired or overwhelmed while not minding negative feelings for her baby.

tovarena

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 12:27 pm

GAMZu wrote:

Quote:

It all comes down to the mother not wanting to be uncomfortable or tired or overwhelmed while not minding negative feelings for her baby.

WHOAH!!! Uncomfortable or tired does not come anywhere close to describing what some women are going through. If that's all it is for you, then LUCKY YOU!! Others of us are, as I described previously, LITERALLY on the threshold of complete and total physical breakdown. And unless you've been in that place, you have no right to belittle the choices some are forced into making. As I said before, I have been forced to get behind the wheel some mornings and literally had to daven to Hashem, PLEASE don't let me harm anyone on my drive to work this morning.

poemmom wrote:

but I can tell you the real problem for a lot of us who did not CIO is not how long it takes to go to sleep initially, but the rather the child waking up multiple times throughout the night to be put back to sleep by the parent each time. That is because many children become conditioned not to be able to fall asleep on their own, even after the normal wakings that occur to adults and children throughout the night as part of the sleep cycle.

That's exactly it!

Ruchel

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 12:40 pm

Quote:

To lie on the floor for 20 minutes till the kids fall asleep is not nearly as uncomfortable as crying for an hour. How's that?

That's ok for a secular woman who doesn't have to mind her back so much because she's done after 1 or 2.
The advice I hear allll the time from the very very frum ladies who have 4+ is to take care of my back, especially as a tall person. Would I lie down on the floor for 20 mins regularly? No, sorry, never. Just like I wouldn't carry anything that hurts and I TRY not to slouch.

My mom's good friend isn't allowed to have a fourth because she's in her mid 30's and her back is killed. I don't want this.

chavs

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 12:43 pm

believe me, my kids wake up at night, many times more times then I care to count, and I actually get more tired due to always being aneamic and having a depression, so its not like I am not tired. I just wouldnt let my kids cry. They are my responsibility, my children, there isnt that much more to say about it.
I got a book I used with ds when he was small that took a lot of effort but helped us all sleep more. By a lot of effort I mean upto 1 1/2 hour to get to sleep for a nap sometimes, and then he'd wake up 1/2 hour after sometimes as well, but no crying involved. For dd it is different because I dont have that kind of time etc, she wakes up at night, and I dont let her cry. I love her, why would I want her to cry by herself, if a friend was crying I'd com fort her wh not my daughter who is a baby.

tovarena

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 12:54 pm

It's great that it works that way for you, Chavs. Just remember as poemmom said, that not every situation, and not every child is the same. To make sweeping statements about how a mother is harming her child is frankly oversimplifying and insulting.

chavs

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 1:20 pm

well every mother and every child is different, but generally when a babyy cries its because they need something, sometimes what they need is plain and simply just mum, thats it. You dont have to stand and rock them if they are that tired that they are crying, just lay down with them, put them in a sling, hold them while you are doing something else like emailing, listening to your mp3 player etc.
Saying that a baby who is left to cry stops crying because they realized no one will come, isnt a sweeping statement but the simple truth.
Its not a matter of working for me, its a matter tof, if I bring a child to this world I have to take care of them and soemtimes that means having NO sleep, because they are crying and need mummy.

I dont see how its over simplifying, ppl cry when they are sad, in pain or in other ways unhappy or something is unwell. Why is it that when we are talking about a person who has been alive for 9 months its fine that they cry and are sad. Mummy has to get on with things, so learn how to comfort yourself. Never mind that you cant eat on your own and you cant talk why dont you learn your first lesson, mummy wont come when you cry. Life sucks learnt to live with it.

I am sorry I am offending all you parents who have no problems letting your babies cry, but I frankly feel worse for them then for you.

tovarena

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 1:37 pm

You appear to be blessed with either a strong constitution and tolerance for zero sleep or pretty good babies (or possibly both). Some women, with zero sleep, will literally land in the hospital. And not all babies will stop crying if mommy or daddy is just laying near them. DD will, DS won't. They're twins - and even so, two completely different responses to bed, sleep, etc.

We are NOT talking about a mother who is "too busy" doing something else such as emailing or listening to an mp3 player. We are talking about mothers trying to get a few unbroken hours of sleep so that they are able to function. Because guess what, while it may be tough for the child to cry and wonder where it's mommy is, it's even tougher if that child has no mommy because she's incapacitated. That's what we're talking about here.

poemmom

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 1:49 pm

Good points, Tovarena. And lets also not forget women with more than one young child crying at night, such as an infant in a crib in one room and a toddler in a bed in the other (and don't say put them together, or they will wake each other up all night.)

When I was preg. with my first, I read a lot of books on everything natural, both childbirth and parenting. I tried to apply that information, and found out the hard way about the oversimplifications and even misdirections common in many of those books.

What I know now is that every child is different and every birth is different, and that there is valuable info on both sides of the debate. In fact, it shouldn't be a debate at all, just a pooling of knowledge.

chavs

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 1:50 pm

I never said they stop crying I said that they might continue to cry, but the fact is that your precense there means that they know you're there even if they continue to cry.
I dont have a strong constitution but I have a a lot of empathy and its impossible for me to hear a person cry and ignore them (even if I dont know them).
My kids are not easy, dd had colic ds had really bad reflux (real reflux problems), both of them are uhmm what you'd call high strong, and a lot of people have commented on that. 2 weeks ago I was out for 20 minutes my inlaws watched the kids ds was asleep dd awake, when I came back my fil looked like a woman with ppd and said "oh the crying" make it stop, I actually appreciated him knowing what its like.
Anyways my kids are not easy, some kids are I have met them. I know mine arent their personalities were clear froom day one.

greentiger

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 1:53 pm

GAMZu wrote:

To lie on the floor for 20 minutes till the kids fall asleep is not nearly as uncomfortable as crying for an hour. How's that? Smile

Quote:

It all comes down to the mother not wanting to be uncomfortable or tired or overwhelmed while not minding negative feelings for her baby.

I don't think its about not wanting as you put it. I am sure you agree that it is against any mothers basic nature to listen to her baby and not respond but for some women it reaches a certain point where they have to bite their lip, sit down, feel guilty and walk out. I am sure that what any mother would want at that moment is to run to her kid and hold him. So why is she torturing both herself and her child? Becuase some women just can not function as calm and loving mothers during the day after waking up at night for a baby. Simple as that. I think you need to understand that while you don't find cio to be ideal for some women and their babies it IS. You know why? Because the baby is much better off when he has a well rested mother during the day.

I don't think anyone (or at least almost anyone) uses the cio method for selfish reasons.

GAMZu

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 2:23 pm

Greentiger, there are many, many methods of training kids to sleep through the night that do NOT require babies to cry their hearts out in vain for hours. Unfortunately, they are more labor intensive, take more of the mother's time each night, and take more nights to achieve results. And not all mothers are willing to give of themselves if there's a faster and easier route.

Ruchel, actually, lying on the floor is good for your back. Not all night long, but a little bit is beneficial. Besides, it seems like you are grasping at excuses. This is all theoretical, but if a mother has a choice to let her baby cry herself to sleep or buy a cheap mat or mattress... what should the mother choose?

And I'm totally shock

at the suggestion to let a newborn cry because they don't understand better and won't feel abandoned, they'll just learn that mommy doesn't come at night. Like, hello? Newborns don't understand what day is, what night is, they don't understand leave, they don't understand come. They don't understand that they're an independent person, they don't understand that their mother is an independent person. All they understand is pain/discomfort and pleasure/comfort. All they'll "learn" is that they have something that needs to be taken care of and it isn't, and it's very hurtful and unpleasant.

Ruchel

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 2:28 pm

Being a martyr doesn't make you a better mother, esp. in the long run. BH my dd was easy so I can't talk, but many kids will cry because they see it works. They don't want to go to bed, so they'll do it.

It must be very hard hearing the baby (really, not "manipulative") cry for minutes and minutes and minutes and not come in. But if in the end it's the only way to get some sleep and not have a car accident/drop the baby... easy choice.

As for cheap mattresses, they're back killers. No woman planning on a large family should get them.

I'm sorry if I appear grasping for excuses. It's not the way I am in fact. I am very confident in my beliefs on this topic, for having seen and heard a lot on it. My mind is fully made up and I feel very good about my choices. Actually the easy way out for me would be to kill out my back and then use it as excuse to not go through many pregnancies...

One last thing, I've been told I'm too spoiling/sensitive... so that shows you it's really all cultural.

Last edited by Ruchel on Thu, Nov 06 2008, 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

greentiger

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 2:32 pm

GAMZu wrote:

I don't think anyone here is suggesting letting a baby cry for hours. I also don't think its about women not willing, but about not being able to and imo no one should be made to feel guilty becuase they are not able to do something. Thats point one.

Point two: every child is different. Its great that nursing your kid to sleep works for you. It worked for me too, but cosleeping is not working and unfortunatly I cannot fit in my baby's crib. Sorry. Patting and singing does not work for my baby either. She is much calmer knowing that mommy says its time to sleep and is clear about the message by leaving the room. Otherwise she thinks its playtime and gets confused and more miserable and overtired. That is what my baby needs. Your kids have different needs.

Point 3: I see you feel very strongly about this. Please be careful though when coming out strongly with your veiws not to put others down on the way.

Last edited by greentiger on Thu, Nov 06 2008, 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

greentiger

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 2:33 pm

GAMZu wrote:

And I'm totally shock

So was I

in the begining. But I disagree. Of course a newborn knows what night is. Even a fetus does.

Ruchel

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 2:34 pm

Quote:

She is much calmer knowing that mommy says its time to sleep and is clear about the message by leaving the room. Otherwise she thinks its playtime

lol!! some days my dd goes through phases like this, when she's not tired enough.
So I just sing and rock and I RUN Wink

Ruchel

Thu, Nov 06 2008, 2:36 pm

greentiger wrote:

GAMZu wrote:

And I'm totally shock

So was I

in the begining. But I disagree. Of course a newborn knows what night is. Even a fetus does.

It helps to put them in the dark really, and to teach them night is no time to play, etc. I don't think the mother should be as responding as during the day, and as the kid grows up it should be less and less.

Now, do they know from start? I would say it's a machlokes. Some midwives told me yes, others no.