my dd is insane. help!!

freidasima

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 3:23 am

Amother, get your facts right.
Those kids didn't become "the greatest generation" but a generation of hard messed up people emotionally in many many cases..people who are very unhappy and who raised rather unhappy children who didn't get the emotional care they needed and thus went to look elsewhere...

Of course it depends whether we put a price on personal happiness and think that it is important, but I would say that today people have a lot more personal fulfilment than then.

cubbie

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 3:44 am

Ok, I know I'm going to get bashed for this, but I disagree with everything here....
What your daughter is going through is taught behaviour, taught by you OP, sorry I'm not trying to be mean here, but when you say that you've been giving in to this for two years, that means that you've been pandering to her every toddler tantrum and request since she was one. At one children start to test their boundaries and if they are allowed, will test and test until they are totally in control, all three year olds try to take control in any way that they are allowed. But a kid who has been allowed to do this since age one will be more extreme, and it will be much harder for the parent to take back control, than a one year old who is taught boundaries from the beginning of this phase. Of course I believe in choosing battles, but because I will not give in to every toddlerish/childish whim of the moment, it passes very quickly and we have minimum tantrums at home as they do not get results. My kids are not neglected or emotionally damaged, they are simply taught from a very young age, that good behaviour gets praise and attention, and unacceptable behaviour doesn't. That doesn't mean that they never try to push the boundaries, but it doesn't last more than a couple of minutes as they know that when I say no, I mean no - not no for 15 minutes, but if you cry/scream enough, I'll give in. If you want this to stop you need to work hard to help her unlearn this kind of behaviour, by choosing what is acceptable for you and what isn't and then sticking to it, even if it means long tantrums at the beginning.

freidasima

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 5:03 am

Cubbie, don't you think it makes a difference if you are talking about a kid who screams and throws tantrums about everything or almost everything, or at a certain time about everything, or a child who consistently has a serious problem with a number of issues? Don't you think that children deserve consideration? Do you really feel that what the OP is describing here is a spoiled brat, or a child who has a total revulsion to drops of water in her glass? Does the OP write that she does this about everything or just about a very circumscribed number of issues? I think the latter and for me, that's a very different story than what you are describing.

Look - kids have inborn likes and dislikes, just as we did as children and we still do as adults. Some are learned, but let me give you example as even learned behavior at times deserves great consideration.

If a juk (cockaroach) would drop into your glass of water would you drink it? Feh, of course not. You would also not remove the juk and drink the water although probably there is nothing wrong with the water. It disgusts you. Now, this is BTW the difference between a two a four and a six year old in terms of learned behavior. Most two year olds would drink the water with the juk, they don't know what a juk is, they couldn't care less.. Too much to think of a juk, then think of a fly, a little fly.

Now a four year old will probably remove the fly and then drink the water. But a six year old? By then they would have a horrible reaction to even the thought. You throw out the water, of course, just like an adult would do...

Learned behavior. But would you say that if you are serving an adult a glass of water and it is a real pain for you to go to the kitchen, get a clean glass and give him/her another glass of water you would say "hey, don't be a pain, just take out a fly and drink the darn water already"???? Would you??? No, because you identify with their pain and their feeling and you want to give them consideration.

Why? BECAUSE YOU IDENTIFY WITH WHAT THEY ARE FEELING.

Maybe as parents one of the best ways to teach our children to have derekh eretz for us and our feelings and our considerations is, in the case of a child who has a number of very very strong feelings about things, to have consideration for their feelings?

Again, depends on the child and the situation and the sensitivity of the parent, but in the case the OP descirbed here, I would say this child deserves consideration.

cubbie

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 5:24 am

amother wrote:

I've been giving in to her craziness for 2 yrs

This exactly the point that I am refering to, I see nothing wrong with taking a child's concerns into consideration, my older dd, likes to sleep in a particular way, first her duck blanket and then her flower blanket, and a purple pillow case, fine, that's how she feels secure in her bed -if however one evening my dd were to suddenly decide that she wants a pink pillow case that we don't have, tough, I would not run out to the shop to fix the problem from fear of her reaction. But when a parent is at the point, where she has been giving in to her craziness for 2 years, that is a child who as learnt that she can totally control her parent by throwing a tantrum, at any point she chooses, and the parent doesn't know where it's going to come from next. It didn't come across to me that this is an ongoing issue where the child has always minded water drops and therefore needs to be respected. This sounds like the latest in a phase of control issues, and therefore time for the family to re-establish who is the parent and who is the child. Believe me giving in to the child for every phase and being scared to say to her no, because of how she'll react, doesn't do her favours, it doesn't set her up for real life. One day she'll go into the bigger world and she'll be told no and not no how to deal with it, because she was never taught that skill.

freidasima

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 5:41 am

Again cubbie I would look for a pattern. What got me thinking was that the OP said that her daughter was a model child. Meaning this is not a kid who flies off at the handle for nothing. Or for just anything she wants.

Could really be sensory issues of one kind or another. Could be really sensitive kid...I would play it safe here and unless it is something crazy, I would try to accomodate the child...when she is older and has a bigger vocabulary and way of expressing herself, maybe then she will be able to explain what it is that bothers her...but I have the same problem, I can't explain what it does to me to see a pile of newspapers messed up on a table. It really turns my stomach and makes me sick! I like neat piles. So? Does that make me a freak? Maybe but guess what? I don't ask other people to do it in their houses, only want my house to look nice to me because I have to live there...same goes for her. Does this daughter force other people to do things for themselves? Does she get upset seeing that her big brother or sister is eating off a different plate than usual? Or that THEY have water in their cup? I doubt it.

Isramom8

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 6:49 am

Whether this is typical kid bahavior or sensory issues, it's a shame to make it into a power struggle. The child will just fight harder to assert her needs or wishes. Mommy insisting on having control won't change the child, and can do more harm than good for your relationship and therefore for her emotional well being (and you'll just be more angry and tense, which is worse than the frustration of a constant struggle to be tolerant and patient).

I know this form years of experience with my children. But now that some of my kids are teenagers, I still have to refrain from exercising too much control.

I don't mean to set no limits, of course.

Also, please don't call your daughter insane. Her behavior may be driving you to feel insane, but she is not mentally unwell, and neither are you.

Isramom8

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 12:22 pm

[quote="Mrs. XYZ] But how will this child ever develop the "learned behavior" that its not the end of the world if there are some water drops in a cup, if the mother keeps giving in? Or do you think its normal for an adult to freak out over some water drops?[/quote]

No, it's not typical of an adult. A child will typically grow out of this. Strict discipline when a child isn't ready to learn that behavior is unnecessary and upsets all involved.

Isramom8

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 12:39 pm

"A child will typically grow out of this. "

How?

Humans will end up doing most things that adults do even without parents pressuring them to. We want to act like adults - when we are ready.

If the mother keeps giving in, isn't she reinforcing this behavior?

No. She is supporting the child in her natural development process. It's natural for kids of this age to want things "just so" - they are becoming more independent and need the security of the familiar, discovering order, realizing that they are individuals with choices, identifying as individuals with certain preferences, and so on. Discipline is pointless when the child isn't up to that stage of learning.

_________________
"If you believe only what you can see, what do you do in the dark?"

cubbie

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 1:11 pm

I don't think the issue here IMHO is whether or not there are water drops in the milk or not, it is how a 3-year-old and parent have both come to accept that it is perfectly ok to scream for 10 minutes
(who however long it takes) to get what she wants. A three year old even with sensory issues should have no problem in expressing themselves with kavod to the parent, and therefore get kavod back. But whatever way you look at it a child who screams and screams to get their wishes met is tantruming - which at 3 is taught behaviour and can be minimized to a couple of minutes by ignoring this behaviour. My 21 month old knows better than that - not because she is a better kid, but because she has learnt to express herself in a polite manor to get what she wants. If my almost 4 year old would scream demands at me, I she would certainly not be getting them met.
By meeting these screamed demands the potential power struggles are built, not by ignoring them and teaching them very simply, that it is more effective to say "Imma, please can you clean the water drops? They're bothering me." Rather than "AAHHH DON'T WANT MILK, WITH WATER DROPS, GIVE ME A NEW ONE NOW AHHHHHHH"

freidasima

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 1:14 pm

Once again, I remind you that there are adults who won't drink from a wet glass. When a person is an adult no one thinks that there is anything wrong if they have such preferences and act on them. No one thinks it is crazy if someone doesn't like broccoli to the point where if it is on their plate they are so disgusted that they won't eat anything on that plate...they are just called "picky". "finicky" "ascetic".

But poor kids, they aren't allowed to be any of these things. Theyaren't allowed opinions and they aren't allowed perferences. Not if it bothers their parent at the time. An adult would say, this is all you are giving me, then I don't want anything thank you.

A child who may not yet have the ability to say it may not say "thank you" but they express the same sentiment...just leave the poor kid alone. I believe in children's rights and yes, they are sometimes at the expense of a parent.

Again, just think of a poor old sick person. She wants something to eat or drink, but her child, the caretaker, is busy. She is darned thirsty and is crying for something to drink but the caretaker is just too busy and says "cant you wait a minute until I finish? There you are crying all the time for nothing, you are just a very ungrateful old lady, shut up already!"

And there you are, old and sick in your wheelchair, unable to get your own drink, and crying. Because after all, the caretaker should have a life too, no? She can't just give in to your every tantrum..and you know, maybe you also had a stroke and can't really express so well what you want and can't say please and thank you all the time when you get upset.

But that's called elder abuse...to do that to children, well that's ok...

chavs

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 1:31 pm

Freida Sima I agree with you. I have dislikes and I wouldnt appreciate if dh "made" me eat it, and I wouldnt drink from a wet glass either to think of it. No one forces me to, and when I am a guest by someone and I ask to please have the cake and icescream on different plates I only sometimes get a comment and it's always nice or slightly bemused in a nice way. Everyone accept that adults have likes and dislikes, I dont understand why if a child has a dislike its a question of a power struggle or perhaps "sensory issues". Children are ppl to.
If ds wants something and expresses it in a tantrum I dont "give in" to whatever it is he wants, I tell him he has to ask nicely otherwise I dont understand him (which on occasions were truth), ds used to have loads of tantrums and is growing out of them b-H and I did respct his likes and dislikes, but he had to be polite. Thats how children learn, and if you expect your kid to learn to be empathetic I belive that you must show that trait to, which is why I am empathetic when he cant have something. I acknogledge that he wants it and tell him that unfortunatly he cant.

freidasima

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 3:04 pm

No one is accusing anyone of child abuse here so let's just take a deep breath and relax.

I do, however feel strongly that any adult who uses force, physical or emotional, in order to get a person who is more helpless than they (child, handicapped, elderly) to do something which is not in order to save that person's life or health, is abusing their power. There is a big difference between abusing one's power and being a "child abuser" or a "handicapped abuser" or an "elderly abuser".

On the professional level I know that the line between "teaching" and "abuse of power" can be a very fine line that we all can walk as parents, and that we can all fall from. It is therefore necessary for each and everyone of us to constantly review our own behavior, asking ourselves whether what we do is for our child or for our own needs. True, everyone has needs and parents have and deserve to have their needs met as well. However here's the thing. I belong to those who believe at least with children, that we made a choice to bring them into the world and we therefore have a responsiblity towards them, their happiness and their needs, usually before our own. Had our own needs for things been stronger, we would not have had those children, we would have therefore met our own continuous needs for (1) sleep (2) peace and quiet (3) higher financial level (4)total independence and not had children.

There is, however, a problem in some societies where people may feel that they don't have a choice BUT to have children, even when they don't want to, or they are not ready for them emotionally, financially etc. That can be in both Jewish or non Jewish society, in religious or non religious society etc.

I wonder, however, whether there is a higher perentage of parents in large famlies or famlies with children one after the other, but only in cases where these people became parents because they felt that they HAD to but not necessarily out of choice, of their not respecting their children's desires or needs...I haven't come across it in those charedi families that I have dealt with professionally who very much wanted children, be it two or twelve children...but only with regard to those who basically had children back to back because "that's how we have to do it"....

Mrs. XYZ

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 3:30 pm

Quote:

I do, however feel strongly that any adult who uses force, physical or emotional, in order to get a person who is more helpless than they (child, handicapped, elderly) to do something which is not in order to save that person's life or health, is abusing their power. There is a big difference between abusing one's power and being a "child abuser" or a "handicapped abuser" or an "elderly abuser".

I dont think there is anything wrong with a parent trying to knock out a 'meshugaas' from a child. For instance, if one of my children hate broccolli, of course I wont force her to eat it. But I will also not allow her to go eat dinner in her bedroom just because another person is eating broccoli in the kitchen and she is 'farekelt'. So the first time she sulked and sat with her nose closed, but after a few times she grew up and got used to it. Had I allowed her to leave the kitchen every time, she would grow up as an adult with such 'meshugasen', which I think is pathetic. I as a mother, am allowed to use my power for what I consider is important to their mentchlichkeit, even if it not dangerous.

freidasima

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 3:36 pm

Well you know there is even here a fine line between menschlichkeit and health, physical and mental. Sometimes it is a mishegass like you write, but some kids get so sick from seeing something that they just get sick. Literally puke on the table. Been there done that, unfortunately both personally and professionally...didn't believe it when I learned it in the research lit as a student but when you see it for real...wow...

So if you do have a kid like that who gets so sick from broccoli, then you just don't serve broccoli. I have a husband who gets really sick from anything having to do with olives. Olive oil, the smell of olives etc. So I never ever ever cook with olives. One of the kids loves it and she buys herself olives and eats them on the porch so that dh won't smell them because she knows that he will get really sick. So, we are so solicitous of adults in this case but sometimes we have to make sure that our kids aren't having the same problem. Again, parents have to know their own child here, but there are cases when I would truly understand if a child would have to leave the room so as not to see some food that would get them physically uncomfortable...

amother

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 5:37 pm

OP here
I dont have time for a long post but cubbie, you cant decide from one line how I've been parenting my kids for 2 years.
you werent there when my daughter was screaming please please just let me do it over again. and I (trying to be a good mother) said no, you have to do it the way I said..... you have no idea how I tried for a year to get her to understand that no is no. it didnt work on specific things. so after that year I changed my way. and had better results.
when I said I've been giving in to her craziness, it would have been more accurate to write I've been dealing with the craziness.
and actually now that I've recently learned that giving her what she needs results in perfect behaviour. I give her what she needs all the time. as she has grown older, she's gotten so much easier. in part b/c she can express herself, in part b/c she's able to mentally understand more. but mostly b/c I have changed the way I deal with her.