Does homeschooling fit in with chareidi haskafa?

shalhevet

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 4:57 am

This is an offshoot of a thread in the Israeli section that was seeking information on homeschooling. That thread set me thinking why chareidim in Israel don't homeschool, and since I don't want to hijack that thread, I'm starting a new one.

What I am about to write I mean regarding homeschooling as a shitta. I can see it as appropriate in particular cases at an older age if a child has particular problems in school. I am also, of course, talking about a geographical area with appropriate schooling and not one where the alternative is schooling not on a frum enough level. I also think my comments apply more to boys, but also to girls to a lesser extent. I am also commenting without having a wide knowledge base about homeschooling (mostly what I've read here), so feel free to correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

1. One of the values we want to instil in our sons, particularly, is the importance of limmud Torah and the negativity of bittul Torah. Let's say I could, in theory, teach a 6 year old, the same amount of material he learns in cheder in one morning, in an hour. Let's say such a 6 year old needs 5 hours a day to play. If I only teach him for an hour, he is getting the message that most of the day is for free time.

2. In the vast majority of chareidi households, particularly in Israel, there is no one available to teach their child for a long stretch of time, even if the parents decide to teach more material for the whole morning. Most mothers are working and/or have other children. They are not going to sit and learn chumash for 5 hours.

3. This also applies to girls: modern education methods are based on the importance of teaching children the tools to get knowledge by themselves (eg through Internet, experiment, discussion). This could work well as homeschooling eg mother sends child to surf the net and write a project on Japan, science is learned by baking cookies, watching water boil etc. However, Torah is learned by messora - not people guessing their own ideas or researching, but by one person (the father or the rebbe) teaching the Torah he learned from his father/ rebbe.

4. Chareidi chinuch in EY involves parents a lot, even when the children are in cheder. The homework is for the son to go over the material with his father. So a father/ mother spend quality learning time together in addition to the cheder.

5. As a boy gets older there is more emphasis on the kehal eg for a minyan.

greentiger

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 5:55 am

1. In the past, boys were taught torah through personal melamdim. I think when it comes to instilling a positive feel towards torah, it works much better with the one-on-one approach. (Or one-on-four for arguments sake). You have a personal teacher that advances with their kid at their own level. If kid needs a break, you take a break and you don't have a whole class to account for. Just because you learn faster, doesn't mean you need to learn less. If you want your kid to learn 6 hours a day, teach him more. The torah is endless and your kid doesn't only need to know what the chinuch atzmai decides.

2. So practically it may not work for many families you know, but the mother can still hire a teacher and the kid would be considered homeschooled, and what about homes where the mother is home or that money theoretically isn't an issue.

3. I don't get this point. I think there is much more hands on learning around the house. Homeschooling does not mean sitting your kid down with a project and walking away to bake cookies. Anyhow, if this were the case she'd be developing many more useful skills around the house than in her classroom.

4. Ok, so?

5. I don't see what this has to do with homeschooling. Are you saying that because a kid takes his lessons at home, he can't daven with a minyan?

Inspired

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 6:49 am

I agree with GT.
Except I don't get your number 4. What does that have to do with anything? Homework is not homeschool. And I have news for you, in the states they have a lot more homework.

But, no, homeschooling doesn't fit in with charedi hashkafah, not because it goes against anything in torah ideals, just because in todays world its "NOT NORMAL". In the shtetl it was very normal. It was the way jews educated their children. Either they educated them themselves or they hired private milamdim for the boys, as GT said, at most in groups of 3 or 4 .
That is far cry from the terrible situation our boys have now, 30 kids in a class in cheder. Which may be NORMAL but is not ideal at all. It is unfortunate that we couldn't pay a living wage to a rebbe to teach 3 or less boys all day.
Girls were definitely homeschooled until beis yaakov came around. They were actually unschooled if you want to get technical.

No, I don't think you understand homeschooling that well.

Atali

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 2:34 pm

shalhevet wrote:

1. One of the values we want to instil in our sons, particularly, is the importance of limmud Torah and the negativity of bittul Torah. Let's say I could, in theory, teach a 6 year old, the same amount of material he learns in cheder in one morning, in an hour. Let's say such a 6 year old needs 5 hours a day to play. If I only teach him for an hour, he is getting the message that most of the day is for free time.

2. In the vast majority of chareidi households, particularly in Israel, there is no one available to teach their child for a long stretch of time, even if the parents decide to teach more material for the whole morning. Most mothers are working and/or have other children. They are not going to sit and learn chumash for 5 hours.

3. This also applies to girls: modern education methods are based on the importance of teaching children the tools to get knowledge by themselves (eg through Internet, experiment, discussion). This could work well as homeschooling eg mother sends child to surf the net and write a project on Japan, science is learned by baking cookies, watching water boil etc. However, Torah is learned by messora - not people guessing their own ideas or researching, but by one person (the father or the rebbe) teaching the Torah he learned from his father/ rebbe.

4. Chareidi chinuch in EY involves parents a lot, even when the children are in cheder. The homework is for the son to go over the material with his father. So a father/ mother spend quality learning time together in addition to the cheder.

5. As a boy gets older there is more emphasis on the kehal eg for a minyan.

1. I would agree with you if that is what you are doing, but as Inspired said there is plenty of Torah to learn. You could teach him for more hours each day.

2. That is an issue of practicality, not hashkafa

3. The whole idea of girls going to school at all is essentially a b'dieved. If the mother is qualified to teach her daughter at home, why not?

Seraph

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 3:12 pm

shalhevet wrote:

1. One of the values we want to instill in our sons, particularly, is the importance of limmud Torah and the negativity of bittul Torah. Let's say I could, in theory, teach a 6 year old, the same amount of material he learns in cheder in one morning, in an hour. Let's say such a 6 year old needs 5 hours a day to play. If I only teach him for an hour, he is getting the message that most of the day is for free time.

This all depends on the child. For example, for a first grader, I don't think there is any problem with "bitul torah". Once a kid knows how to read and comprehend, there is plenty for the kid to learn on his own even. Even if its one or two hours of formal instruction, the rest of the time can be spent learning from a sefer of his own choosing on his own. There are torah books geared towards younger children as well.
And just because one isnt having formal learning doesnt mean he is playing. Doing craft projects, sports, working in a garden, taking care of animals, helping with siblings- none of that is bitul torah in my books. Bitul torah is bumming away, doing nothing, when you could be learning Torah. Not even all "chareidim" hold by the 'You must be learning torah every single second of the day." That definitely is not MY hashkafa, and all those chareidim that don't hold one must be in kollel ad meah vi'esrim don't either hold that you must be learning every spare second. Koveah itim latorah is important, and that all chareidim will agree upon. The question is- must the "eis/eit" be ALL day, EVERY day, not doing anything else BUT learing torah? I say Hashem created a whole world out there, and learning about science, interacting with others, learning about Hashem's world- all that is Torah, as long as it is done with the proper hashkafa. I dont think its bitul torah for a boy to learn math, science, etc.

Quote:

2. In the vast majority of chareidi households, particularly in Israel, there is no one available to teach their child for a long stretch of time, even if the parents decide to teach more material for the whole morning. Most mothers are working and/or have other children. They are not going to sit and learn chumash for 5 hours.

Again, if you're talking about those chareidim that hold that you must be in kollel and hence the mother is working full time to support, of course homeschooling in such a case won't be easy. But its still possible if you hire melamdim. As to taking care of other siblings- trust me, thats not an issue, as I assume all will be homeschooled. And babies, who dont understand that mom needs to give others attention as well, nap. And older kids can be expected to entertain themselves while mom teaches the older siblings.

Quote:

3. This also applies to girls: modern education methods are based on the importance of teaching children the tools to get knowledge by themselves (eg through Internet, experiment, discussion). This could work well as homeschooling eg mother sends child to surf the net and write a project on Japan, science is learned by baking cookies, watching water boil etc. However, Torah is learned by messora - not people guessing their own ideas or researching, but by one person (the father or the rebbe) teaching the Torah he learned from his father/ rebbe.

As the others said, bais yakov is a recent invention. The ideal is for parents to teach their daughters, but since they werent succeeding and girls were going off the derech, they decided to have formal schooling. But if the parents ARE able to teach the girls enough to keep them interested in yiddishkeit, no reason to think formal schooling is the mesora.

Quote:

5. As a boy gets older there is more emphasis on the kehal eg for a minyan.

Kehal is for davening. Not for learning. No reason why homeschoolers cant daven with a minyan.

See, shalhevet, if your question is-
"Does homeschooling work with the current litvish israeli chareidi lifestyle", I'd say the answer is probably not.
If your question was- "Does homeschooling mesh with the traditional frum lifestyle, what has been done for thousands of years?" the answer is most definitely yes.

Of course, in todays chareidi society, anyone who does things any differently will be looked at strangely. But, I know if my kids ended up like us and in israeli chareidi schools they'd be treated badly because my husband and I ARE different. So if we're going to be different anyhow, at least let us give our children an education that meshes with what we believe, and won't cause our children to be ridiculed on a regular basis for being different. (I had that growing up and it was absolutely TERRIBLE!!!)
But this isnt just chareidi society. In the world at large, if you dare to be "different", people look down upon you. And some people can't help but be different. And integrity is doing what you think is the right thing, even if others look down upon you for doing so.

Imaonwheels

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 3:16 pm

I think for boys it is not proper and for girls not practical.

A boy should not be taught Torah by women and the melamed is there also to be a a rav/authority figure, I know some places have morahs as the main teacher, that is preschool not cheder. Few of these have a cheder program as well. Mpst chederim either have their own minyanim for kids old enough to be in the minyan, which in charedi circles can be 3rd or 4th grade.

There is a totally different curriculum and shita for teaching boys. In the charedi sem the woman learned how to teach girls. In most charedi settings the mothers don't have the ability to teach kodesh by 3rd grade when Gemora starts.

The father has the chiuv and he must hire a melamed if he cannot do it himself.

For girls, they were traditionally taught by mothers but very few mothers have the ability to teach all of the subjects at all of the grade levels. How many can teach 7th grade math, Navi and dinim? Also, few sems will take a girl who they are not familiar with her school and have teachers they trust for refernce. And few girls who were never in sem will find a shidduch. One of the reasons being that sem is also hashkafa and socialization as well as knowledge. Ditto yeshiva for boys.

I am not a big homeschool fan in general, to be honest. I think the online school for shluchim kids is a lifesaver davka because they can see the teacher and virtual classmates.

Seraph

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 3:33 pm

Imaonwheels wrote:

Who said that homeschooling means mom teaches? My husband works an afternoon job. That would mean being able to teach my son limudei kodesh all morning. Afternoons I can teach secular subjects. And what I or my husband cant do, we can hire a melamed for that.

shalhevet

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 3:57 pm

greentiger wrote:

I think a melamed with a small group is great. If someone can afford to pay a quarter of a rebbe's salary every month so that his son can learn in a class of 4 that would be wonderful. In the past melamdim earned next to nothing - but you know what they say: if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. In the past it was only the very wealthy who could afford a private tutor for their children. If you have someone 5 hours a day, you are going to have to pay them a salary of at least 3-4000 shekels a month.

Quote:

5. I don't see what this has to do with homeschooling. Are you saying that because a kid takes his lessons at home, he can't daven with a minyan?

Can the father coordinate davenning in the same minyan as his son for years, and also teaching him tefilla? In the chadarim they gradually increase the amount of tefilla until it is a full davenning.

shalhevet

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 4:15 pm

Atali wrote:

I agree. Do you think that's going to happen? Because I don't. You can't separate practicality from hashkafa. Maybe my question should have been - is it possible to homeschool in practice according to chareidi hashkafa? My 7 year old learns 8.15-3.30 including breaks, davenning etc. Let's say that's five-six hours actual learning, apart from breaks - how is a family going to do that by homeschooling?

Quote:

3. The whole idea of girls going to school at all is essentially a b'dieved. If the mother is qualified to teach her daughter at home, why not?

and to answer Seraph:

Seraph wrote:

Do you know why Sarah Schneirer began BY? Not because the mothers were teaching them at home, but because the girls were at home and learned how to run a house but not much else. Since there was a whole world outside (and we are talking almost 100 years ago, with no TV, no internet, no flashy adverts filling the streets) and the girls weren't exposed to Torah ideas, they had zilch interest in Torah as opposed to Polish/ Russian/ Lithuanian novels, movements such as Zionism/ Socialism/ Communism etc. So what do you think would happen today to a girl who learned to bake cakes and clean the house, without learning hashkafa, chumash etc?? Things would be a zillion times worse!!

Not only that, but the world has changed, and at least in Israel, whether or not a girl is intending to marry someone in kolel, she will probably end up as part of the paid workforce. So if you decide to teach her just how to keep house, as her great-great grandmother did, in Yemen or Lithuania, you are sentencing her to a life of back breaking work, working long hours for little pay doing things like cleaning or low-paid childcare.

shalhevet

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 4:25 pm

Seraph, what happened to והגית בו יומם ולילה?

The exception is if someone is doing something else they need to do - such as earn a parnassa if they have to support people, or play if they are a child, or eat, or sleep so they can function, or do something for their mental health so they can learn. As a child approaches bar mitzva they should gradually fall into this concept. Once they are bar mitzva it is a chiyuv. They can play a game if that will give them koach to learn. But just as part of a 'balanced curriculum'?

I don't know where you got the idea that bittul Torah is only bumming around. If a 14 year old spends three hours a day playing baseball or sorting his stamp collection, you don't think it's bittul Torah?

And please tell me who could do your model who isn't a millionaire? Father works half day, mother is SAHM, and they still have money to hire a melamed? Babies sleep? Maybe for one 2 hour stretch a day once they are 3-4 months old. And if the children are getting taught in turns, again they are not getting the mesorah, but their own discoveries, most of the day.

Mama Bear

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 4:40 pm

I have another practicality question for the mommies who want to homeschool. One of the biggest pluses of sending a kid to school is that you can ACCOMPLISH things during the day. when in the world are you gonna go to the dentist, the OB, the grocery, etc etc if you have all your kids home with you all day? When youve had a rough night with the newborn and are dying for a nap, and can barely keep your eyes open, will you have patience to teach? on another note, wont you at some point become burnt out and snap at your kids if youre with them every single day, all day? I'd certainly lose my mind... it's hard enough to work out babysitting for the ONE kid I have home all day when I have an appointment, and I never go grocery shopping with both. My kid would drive me up a wall and out of my mind if he wouldnt be able to run around outdoors with kids his age evry single day. Just my two cents.

Last edited by Mama Bear on Mon, Jun 08 2009, 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 4:42 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

I am puzzled why people seem insistent on going back in time to things like homebirth, homeschooling etc.... schools and hospitals came into be3ing for a reason! okay, homebirth aside, I think keeping a child home from school indefinitely stunts them socially and gives them a huge stigma. It's really not worth it in the long run. No child appreciates being home every day all day away from their peers, and their academic level is really low. I dont think it's a good idea. I donno, whenever kids have off from school for more than a day they go stir crazy, and so do the parents, whoh are busy keeping house and working. School and cheder were the best invention since sliced bread! I cant imagine a kid who's prefer to be home with mommy and the siblings all day every day.

I am coming from a different stream of orthodoxy than you and definitely a different educational haskafah, so I am letting the whole bittul torah thing aside in the spirit of live and let live and being respectful of others haskhafa.
BUT What you wrote was just SOOOO way off base!!!!

You may THINK that homeschooling stunts a child socially- but in most cases it DOES NOT. It may be a stigma, but only because of people like you who cannot fathom another family doing something in a way in which you disagree. You are very wrong about a child not enjoying the company of his family - perhaps your family dynamic is not conducive to it, but not every family.
MOST EGREGIOUS is your baseless accusation that a homeschooled child's academic level is "really low." Where could you possible have gotten that information from???
Lastly, a child who is homeschooled is NOT going stir crazy, they quickly adjust to self propelled learning. Stir crazy kids are just that because they have been housed in an environment that directs their every movement and thought during the day and then they are at a loss when they are stuck at home with parents who are counting the moments till the kids get back to school.