Why the backlash against moving to an anglo bubble?

amother

Fern

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 2:45 pm

Hard question.

I personally would like Anglos to spread out a bit more. Right now, what is happening is that areas that are heavily Anglo populated are extremely expensive and not getting any cheaper. The whole country is going up in price like crazy, but still nothing compared to Anglo Bubble areas.

I would like to see more families successfully making aliya and it not being limited to the families that are well off enough to make it in RBS, Ramat Eshkol or wherever Anglos live.

I don't live in a bubble and my rent is much more reasonable and so are my overall expenses so I live here without being well-off.

That's my first point.

essie14

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 3:13 pm

Reality wrote:

I feel like the next generation does spread out. My family members who were born here, children of olim, don't live in anglo areas. They can and do move to wherever their hearts desire.

yes, totally. I have a lot of friends who made aliyah with their parents as young children, or were born to olim parents, and many of them are married to Israelis and live all over the country.
In my experience, the Anglo bubble doesn't perpetuate past the original olim. Their children are very integrated.

LovesHashem

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 3:34 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

So interesting because I dont think not integrating has anything to do with picking or not picking a community/box. And I think it has everything to do with never learning the language and making sure that your children know just how awesome the alte heim is. Going there every summer. Those are the things that make integrating impossible. Not not picking a box.

I've met a lot of OTD teens in RBS who know Hebrew. Who aren't obsessed with America.

They are depression, have trauma and anxiety from being thrown into a hardcore Israeli BY school when their family wasn't that type. The family put down the school and the school put down the family and it was just a mess.

The kids who don't learn Hebrew and are obsessed with America don't go OTD. Many of them just choose to move back as young adults or after they get married to America. For others it's a passing stage as teens where American sounds and looks soooo cool and as they become a young adult realize its not all what it's cracked up to be.

They aren't bitter and OTD and struggling with their mental health.

When people say don't move to RBS because of the Anglo bubble they mean because they'll go OTD and get confused etc.

Thats just my opinion if were talking about the more to the right JPF and modern yeshivish crowd.

Not sure what goes on in the MO crowd in the states and in RBS.

amother

Hosta

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 3:44 pm

Reality wrote:

I don't understand it. That's what immigrants do. That's what our great-grandparents did when they moved to the Lower East Side from Eastern Europe. Their kids and grandkids moved away and became "American". But it's so hard to be that first generation immigrant. Why such animosity towards softening the hardship of moving to a new country?

My great-grandparents either never were able to speak English fluently or only spoke with a very heavy Yiddish accent. My grandparents spoke Yiddish and English. My parents, understand Yiddish and only speak English. I grew up only speaking English. That's the natural progression of life. I fully expect the same progression with my own family only we will switch from English to Hebrew.

Yet, I don't hear anyone disparage our ancestors who moved to the Lower East Side. Why are Jews who move to Israel to an anglo community criticized and put down constantly?

First of all - I don't think that people who go to an anglo bubble are put down, just that there are different approaches to aliya, some davka preferring the anglo bubble and some who do it the other way, and each side is very PASSIONATE about there way being THE right way to make aliya.

Now for your Lower East Side comparison:
Our ancestors going to the lower east side dealt with a LOT of issues, common to immigrants. Prostitution was common, most of the kids went OTD, there where jewish gangsters and mobsters - actually the jewish mob and the italian mob cooperated a LOT. Jews where major boxers, which was a sport very hard to stay frum in. There was a reason that the rabbanim tried to get people to stay in poverty stricken, pogrom ridden, anti-Semitic Europe.

Now - on the flip side, it was very hard to stay frum at all or keep kosher if you didn't go to a jewish bubble on the lower east side or some of the other major cities. So that was basically the only option if you wanted to stay frum. Eventually as the numbers grew, the tiny minority that was staying frum grew, there was an influx of frum jews post war, and a frum AMERICAN society was created.
When jews immigrate from russia or ukraine today, they try to integrate as quickly as possible, and don't create enclaves. The ones who do - tend to have the issues that other immigrant communities have.

In israel we have a totally different situation, where you CAN have a full frum life by integrating into the frum Israeli society. Since the final goal is integration, some people feel avoiding the issues of an immigrant/ non integrated community - especially with the second and third generation, are worthwhile.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 3:46 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

When I lived in rbs 18 years ago, there was no big DL community. We didnt know that at the time and thats why we moved then, but what you say about the OTD charedi kids rings very true from my experience.
But I was not davka speaking about otd kids. I was talking about kids who did not integrate. Not always one and the same.

amother

Hosta

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 3:53 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Actually - my issues is more with the part I bolded.

I tend to believe that the kids who go OTD would do so in the states. Usually it is because of things that aliya made worse, but not just because of aliya.

Its the kids who have the weird unhealthy obsession with America that really bother me. It is also why as a kid who made aliya as a kid, and see this with WAY to many of my peers, I will not live in any of the enclaves the second generation is gathering in. I was old enough when I moved here to understand the issues and difficulties in america, and really appreciate Israel. To many of my friends who moved when younger ort where born in RBS idealize america, married american guys, and moved back.

If this was one or two it would be one thing. Go to Gimmel or daled, find a women from ko tomar or Pninei Chen with young kids and ask her how many of her classmates either:
- moved to america at some point
- live in america permnenantly
- wish they could or talk about moving to america
-married an american guy and live here, becasue they couldn't relate to the boys who grew up in RBS, they where to amercian (for some reason the boys become more Israeli)

You would be surprised at the numbers

I can't imagine that is easy for the parents who sacrificed so mush to be in eretz yisrael, and have there kids idealize the place they left.

amother

Lightcoral

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 4:13 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I think if this is your take away from that one sentence, then you missed the point really.

No it wasn’t. There was a lot to digest on the rest of it, but as I’m currently in the hospital right now, my brain isn’t in a mode to digest a lot of material (might be nice to keep in mind before judging)

The sentence did strike out to me because it’s not the first time I’ve heard the sentiment, and I wanted to know if it was something she actually believed. Meaning some people think that if you are zoche to live in ey, then you are not in galus

LovesHashem

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 4:15 pm

amother Hosta wrote:

This is actually my population and people. I barely know anyone that moved back and stayed in that mindset as an adult. It's a very immature mindset usually

Regardless, I'd rather a kid moving back to the USA than bitter and miserable with trauma and anxiety and OTD from the system

Having kids move back to America isn't really a reason I've heard anyone is scared of making aliyah for. It's the other stuff I'm mentioning.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 4:25 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Im saying the kids went otd because their parents failed to integrate.

ANd Im saying some just didnt integrate, nothing to do with going off the derech. They never learend hebew, had a very hard time finding work, some moved back to america and they stayed in the same bubble the parents built when they made aliyah.
The ones who went off the derech because of a lack of integrating, thats a whole other kettle of fish. And its sad in a whole other way.

amother

Oatmeal

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 4:40 pm

I can't find it now, but I once read a study of immigrant groups around the world (Turks in Germany, Koreans in the US, among others) and it found that when immigrants move to an immigrant community, with other newcomers who speak their language, the next generation is much more successful in the new country than when the parents move someplace without a support system. The thinking is that the parents are less stressed, and that's why the kids thrive.

Some kids don't do well with change. Some adults take a long time getting their act together and their kids suffer for it. In my experience, the families who are always looking back at thei old country and comparing Israel negatively to it, and don't learn Hebrew are the families whose kids often find themselves at loose ends.

ora_43

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 4:43 pm

amother Burntblack wrote:

As someone who's family was here pre war, there definitely was criticisms of the people who came and didn't "get with the program"

Yeah, I didn't want to say it...

Not that I think the criticism was justified. They were trying to stay Jewish, for one. And even if they weren't, there's nothing wrong with preferring that kind of 'soft landing.'

But OTOH - realize that for some people, a 'soft landing' means assimilating as much as possible, as quickly as possible. It's like the question of whether to rip the bandaid off all at once or slowly, or jump into the pool vs inching slowly in. It's not about the easy way vs the hard way - each side thinks the other way of doing things is the hard way; that's the argument.

amother

Tiffanyblue

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 6:18 pm

As a child of American parents that grew up in israel and I think the biggest issue is that kids of parents that didn’t integrate are not here nor there. It’s an identity issue. You’re not Israeli and you’re not American. You don’t fit in neither worlds. You can’t understand the Americans and you can’t understand the Israelis. Most of us can’t marry neither Israelis or Americans- only American Israelis. Belonging is a basic need of human nature and when you don’t belong in either places, it can cause much confusion and insecurity. I now live in America and I try very very hard to be mainstream American even though I really don’t understand many cultural things.

amother

Scarlet

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 7:10 pm

amother Tiffanyblue wrote:

what you are describing is a scenario that happens in upbringings everywhere and really is not a reason for the backlash hate/jealousy/critic towards Anglo bubble.

there are people who live and go to school among Yeshivish/Chasidish/ or Just plain Frum and believe that it is not good to identify. They mean well, but at the end of the day most of their children are confused and find it hard to see good in their fellow Jews..

amother

Chicory

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 7:42 pm

Reality wrote:

I didn't read the thread. But you have a very good point. If you drive through Brooklyn, or any big city, you will find that many neighborhoods are specific to one nationality. Chinese, Korean, Latino, African-American, Indian... and then you have Boro Park too. People with similar cultural backgrounds stick together.