Why the backlash against moving to an anglo bubble?

amother

Snowflake

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 1:48 pm

Reality wrote:

It's coming from my real life experience of multiple people ( who still live in the US) telling me directly that moving to RBS isn't really living in Israel, it's an extension of NY/NJ.

I also have read posts here on imamother with the same attitude in general. One time it was directed at me specifically. But there is definitely an overall negative attitude and I'm wondering why.

I'm so curious if olim from other countries experience the same thing...

People ask us all the time why we don’t make aliya. Our kids aren’t learning Ivrit in all the in town BYs- at best they learn Lashon HaTorah. Schools in Israel don’t really want kids like this who don’t fit anywhere else anyway. Moving to an Anglo bubble is pretty much the only thing to be done. Do you have other suggestions? Besides the general one given here to not move with school aged kids?

(As an aside, I learned Ivrit in out of town BY. I was surprised kids don’t learn it where I live. I have now learned that it’s ‘modern’.)

Reality

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 1:52 pm

amother Snowflake wrote:

I don't have any other suggestions. I moved with school age kids and my kids are thriving BH! I think it's too hard to go from 0 to 100.

I think the bubble is exactly what American families need to make a successful aliyah. Which is why I don't understand the outside criticism.

Reality

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 1:55 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Okay when people refer to this Anglo bubble they usually always mention as the example RBS. Not efrat. Not raanana, not maalot dafna.

I think they are right. But it's not because of the English speakers. RBS is a unique place that has created a world between dati leumi and chareidi and people function outside the standard set systems (not everyone but many do) this creates problems with kids getting confused, not having schools after they graduate, only being able to marry someone who is also in the middle and not really chareidi and dati leumi.

It's the people who can't pick a system and align with it.

As someone who made aliyah and went to a high school known to be kinda like that, there were plenty of Israeli classmates who also came from homes that were in the middle and that's why they were in RBS. Those girls also struggled and many of them aren't frum today.

People from the outside don't really know what's going on so they blame rbs and the Anglo bubble when that's really not the root of the issues that they are talking about.

This makes sense.

I think people keep on hoping that middle area will grow because more and more Americans will come here and create that "box".

LovesHashem

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 2:04 pm

Reality wrote:

This makes sense.

I think people keep on hoping that middle area will grow because more and more Americans will come here and create that "box".

Maybe and maybe not. Regardless it's still a small pool and you can't fully integrate if you don't pick a system. That's the issue. Not the language.

amother

Snowflake

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 2:07 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Maybe and maybe not. Regardless it's still a small pool and you can't fully integrate if you don't pick a system. That's the issue. Not the language.

So that goes back to why are people asking Americans why they don’t make aliya- knowing very well that there is very little for American yeshivish and heimish people, and there are zero plans to accommodate. The only place that accommodates at all is like one school in RBS.

So the message being given is 1. Everyone should move to Israel and 2. If you don’t fit the mold, you won’t survive.

amother

Pear

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 2:12 pm

You can't bring children up here as Americans. People who constantly downtalk the Israeli systems and show their children they are unhappy, end up with children who don't feel comfortable.
I have had a lot of professional contact with families in RBS, the percentage of disenchanted teens is way higher than in other communities. But when you speak to the parents, you understand why. These parents came to live in RBS not because they wanted a soft landing but because they wanted a place which accepts them and didn't want to adapt themselves to their surroundings. That is a recipe for disaster. The kids have grown up feeling non-adapted and that is what the parents want - except then they don't feel comfortable anywhere.
If you took these same kids back to America, they would struggle there as well because it is an attitude.

You absolutely do not have to compromise on important values but you do need to help your children find their place and allow them to change and fit in. It is also a total chinuch disaster when parents constantly grumble against the system.

So when people warn against an Anglo bubble, what they are really saying is, if you move here, be aware that there will be adjustments and be happy with your kids becoming Israeli. If you can't bear that idea and therefore move to an area where you feel you can stay American, it is not going to end well.

essie14

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 2:20 pm

Reality wrote:

It's coming from my real life experience of multiple people ( who still live in the US) telling me directly that moving to RBS isn't really living in Israel, it's an extension of NY/NJ.

I also have read posts here on imamother with the same attitude in general. One time it was directed at me specifically. But there is definitely an overall negative attitude, especially from people who dont live in Israel, and I'm wondering why.

I'm so curious if olim from other countries experience the same thing...

People who live in the US have no idea what they are talking about. Let them move here and deal with an Israeli landlord, Israeli bank manager, Israeli kupat cholim, israeli appliances, Israeli food and cooking differences, etc. etc. and see if they still think it's an extension of NY/NJ. thats the most preposterous thing I have ever heard in my life. Makes my blood boil. Twisted Evil

essie14

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 2:22 pm

amother Snowflake wrote:

There is pretty much nowhere else that wants Americans/Olim to start off with.

Completely not true. There are so many cities all over Israel that welcome Olim with open arms and have plenty of services and allowances for olim.

LovesHashem

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 2:23 pm

amother Snowflake wrote:

People who are truly yeshivish do absolutely fine in the chareidi system. Every family I know who is yeshivish had no issue sending their kids to Israeli BY schools and they are accommodating with ulpan.

Almost all the kids I know who are OTD (except one) are not from yeshivish families. The parents have smartphones and they might watch non Jewish movies at home, the mothers may or may not wear stockings, they may or may not wear wigs longer than the standard here.

Go to the yeshivish people in Lakewood and they are pretty much the same as the chareidim here.

The message given is decide which mold you want and learn how to fit into it.

NO one moves to China expecting to have China accomadate and change to them.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 2:24 pm

Reality wrote:

How common is it for people to live in such a tight bubble? In my opinion, it's a small minority. Yet we are all painted with the same wide brush.

It is s tiny minority. And just like all charedim or all MO or all vegans or all etc are painted with the same wide brush, same here.

Did you hear about the chasid that was chastised by a chiloni woman on the bus last week? She started yelling at him that "all you poeple" dont go to the army, when in fact, he did go to the army. Boy was she surprised. (not sure what happened, but you get my point. people like to paint)

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 2:25 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

That is not why they call it the anglo bubble. But those are wonderful things.

amother

Snowflake

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 2:28 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Frumkeit wise I’m talking mainstream Lakewood or Boro Park. But very few schools teach Ivrit in either place.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 2:28 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Maybe and maybe not. Regardless it's still a small pool and you can't fully integrate if you don't pick a system. That's the issue. Not the language.

So interesting because I dont think not integrating has anything to do with picking or not picking a community/box. And I think it has everything to do with never learning the language and making sure that your children know just how awesome the alte heim is. Going there every summer. Those are the things that make integrating impossible. Not not picking a box.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 2:30 pm

amother Snowflake wrote:

There is pretty much nowhere else that wants Americans/Olim to start off with.

This is completely not true. RBS is not the only place that ameican olim go to. Please know that there is a whole big country of eretz yisrael out there. And there are so many places that all different kinds of american olim settle. All the way from the north to the south. Really and truly.

amother

Snowflake

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 2:33 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

And accepts their kids into school? I’ve been given to understand this is very challenging. You can’t just move somewhere and assume everything will just fall into place.

Reality

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 2:36 pm

essie14 wrote:

Thanks! Makes me upset too!

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 2:37 pm

amother Snowflake wrote:

And accepts their kids into school? I’ve been given to understand this is very challenging. You can’t just move somewhere and assume everything will just fall into place.

The only way that one could actually find out is to try and see and do the leg work.

juggling

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 2:44 pm

I have never heard of an issue with olim not being accepted into school.

If it's a charedi school you have to toe the line in order to attend the school. Dress the way they dress, follow all their rules. But I never heard of anyone not getting accepted due to being olim.

In terms of Hebrew, of course it's easier for kids to integrate if they're coming from a school that teaches Hebrew. Yet many olim come (from other countries) and their kids don't even know aleph bet. That's what ulpan is for. They learn. I wouldn't say that's a reason you can't come.