to suppot - yay or nay

amother

Sun, Feb 09 2014, 12:58 pm

smss wrote:

look, I'm still in the stage of being the daughter/dil, not mother/mil, so that's where I'm coming from. I really do believe you that you are being responsible with the money. I'm just saying that you do have to be careful when it's money that was given to for a specific purpose. parents have no obligation to support their adult children- any penny they give IS a gift and not something to be expected. is it a good idea to use money to control your kids? probably not, but the fact is that as the kid, if you are getting money from your parents then you are giving them the right to tell you how to spend it. you want to decide how to spend the money, then you have to use your own, not theirs.

Ah but thats where it geys complicated. Our parents pay our rent, 800$ alot of money I know I work 20 hours to make that money. Still if I didnt spend my earned money on better shoes for my kid perhaps I could pay five dollars towards the rent myself. If youre always watching what youre kids are spending u can get into this resentful mindset. Bh our parents are so generousand non judgmental.

ora_43

Sun, Feb 09 2014, 1:13 pm

amother wrote:

he was a working boy when married & we were asked to help, so we did for the first 2 years & my husb told him this upfront that it'll be 2 years & his first reaction was, what happens then?

So... where did that conversation go? Was there ever a point where you all sat down and talked about "good question, what does happen then"?

If not, that might be a good place to start. See if they have a long-term financial plan, if your daughter would be interested in getting some kind of career training that would open more jobs for her, if your son-in-law would be interested in the same, what his problem is with jobs (does he have trouble keeping a job? is he holding out for something in a specific field? and if so - why isn't he getting jobs in that field? is he qualified?), etc. And see what their expectations were, and maybe make sure your husband's position is clear (it sounds like they may have heard "two years of support" and assumed it meant "or until you stop needing it, whatever comes later" - if so maybe a "we love you, but here's why that's not going to translate into sending money" talk is in order...)

It sounds like your husband and SIL aren't so open to talking, but maybe you and your daughter could have a productive conversation if you meet one-on-one and are open to hearing each other.

Of course, it's your money, and they are adults, so you don't owe them anything. But if they've "crashed" - like, hit a point where they realize "this isn't working, we need to do something differently" - and they're open to making change, it could be that helping them out with money in the short term will make them much more financially stable in the long term.

ora_43

Sun, Feb 09 2014, 1:22 pm

By the way, if you can get your dd and/or her husband to sit down and talk about this, and if they're open to listening, I think it might be more productive to focus on the long-term. Like, maybe you look at them today and think "well if they'd stop ordering pizza once a week and if he'd just take a minimum wage job and stop thinking it's 'beneath' him, they'd be able to pay their bills," and maybe that's true, but it might help them more to think in terms of 5-10 years from now.

Two reasons - 1. because that's what could keep this from being an issue for decades to come (whereas cutting out pizza (or whatever) only helps for so long... ), 2. because for someone who isn't ashamed to get financial help it's not so encouraging to hear "and if you work really hard, you could be paying your own electric bill," (maybe you're thinking "but that SHOULD be encouraging!" and I hear you, but in my experience that's not always the case) but it is encouraging to hear "and if you work really hard, in five years you could be making $XX thousand a year."

bubbebia

Sun, Feb 09 2014, 2:57 pm

The thing is, OP, everyone has to start at the bottom in a profession and work their way up. You aren't going to step into a job or profession with no skill, etc. and expect to be making top dollar. You need professional training and experience. If DSIL is not willing to do the hishtadlus, then this isn't ever going to work out for him. This is HKB"H's wake up call to him. But he ain't listening.

It would be nice if you and DH could sit down with them and discuss things calmly. Help them get a 5-year plan going. Discuss job training. Help them set up a budget, etc. The reality is, though, he probably won't hear a word you say. He might listen to DD but she might not listen to what you have to say either. And then they have to learn to live without and within their means.

I think you have to be careful about letting them come to you for dinner whenever they want. They'll take advantage of that and come every day. Then what do you do? It'll be a never-ending cycle that you'll be stuck in. Nip it now because you'll be feeding their family of 12 kids for the rest of your life.

Peanut2

Sun, Feb 09 2014, 6:16 pm

bubbebia wrote:

DH should NOT be the one sitting down to explain things to the son in law. You need someone else.

Also, in many jobs you can't work your way up. It doesn't usually work that way.
Education and training and skills are important. Starting out as a janitor and working your way up to CEO isn't going to happen.

That's why I asked what field SIL was in. Some fields are more like that, and others really are not. Many are not. Getting training or skills in a specific field are important, but these days that might mean working for free as an intern or volunteer to gain experience and put something on your resume. Getting just any job doesn't really help in the long run.

If SIL has a plan and it's a good one it might be worthwhile to provide some support while this happens. It's sort of like how parents support children when they are in college. The idea is that they are gaining valuable skills and education (and connections and a degree) that will prove more beneficial than sending them to get a job at 18 with a high school degree.

Obviously people should be willing to work to support themselves and their families, but thinking in terms of what to do long term is important.

And I'll give an example: I know someone who graduated from Harvard Law School. It was a few years ago and the job offer (s)he had was rescinded due to the financial situation. This recent law grad volunteered for a non-profit as a lawyer, after sitting the bar, for six months. During this time (s)he lived off credit cards, but got a job. That job was at a prestigious law firm with a six figure salary. Volunteering and not earning a dime was much smarter than getting "any job." It was absolutely necessary in order to get that real job with a real pay check.

amother

Sun, Feb 09 2014, 8:15 pm

I feel we haven't heard the other side of the story. We and you don't know if your dd or sil have had these conversations themselves. We don't know how stressed they are due to money. We don't know how embarrassed they are taking it from you. We don't know if it just appears as if they are expecting it because they are bad at discussing it. We don't know the other side.

I have a bil who really tries and has a hard time. My mil for a long time )still does) would say bad things about him assuming he didn't attempt. But, he did try. You were just not the person he told every time he filled out a job application. We don't know what he and his wife are doing and saying behind closed doors.

PS We were married with very little to no help from our families.

amother

Sun, Feb 09 2014, 10:04 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

I think you can help out with some things for the grandkids, but not to the point where they rely on you for it. every once in a while, buy the grandkids a new outfit or pajamas, or even cute tights. buy the kids toys occasionally. and if you want to provide snacks for the kids, go ahead. I know someone who's mom buys her kids weekly shabbos party. that's very nice. I would NOT buy necessities on any regular basis for them. don't buy the kids all the clothes they need for a year. don't buy them groceries. don't pay for their cell phone plan. if they ask you for money, tell them that you can't give it without reviewing their current budget, and you don't want to embarrass them by asking that of them. so no. if they can't afford groceries, they should be welcome to come eat dinner with you on certain days. but you shouldn't do their grocery shopping for them.

what you should offer to do, if you can afford to, is put your daughter through school so she has a chance of being more independent. and as another poster mentioned, a financial advisor would be useful.

Definitely don't be asking for a specific budget.

When DH and I got married, my parents and in-laws came together and said that they could give us $500/month for shana rishona. DH and I were both in school full-time and working part-time. I had a full scholarship including books. DH's parents agreed to pay the tuition for all of their children for undergrad, and so they paid for his classes at a state school, but he was paying fees. We received $2,000 in wedding gifts.

The first three months, my in-laws helped. But then, they stopped and told us that "we shouldn't have married if we couldn't support ourselves". Um...the barn door had totally been shut on that philosophy. Besides, we were working a combined 35 hours a week and doing school, we weren't sitting on a sofa eating bonbons. We were 19 and 20 and trying!

Well, we tried for one month. I got extremely creative with using up staples in the pantry and thankfully, nothing broke down and nobody got sick. But then in January, DH's health insurance changed. The new insurance wouldn't cover his doctor or his prescriptions and we suddenly had a $350 a month bill for his prescriptions.

DH tried to speak with his parents, and ask for them to cover the cost of his meds. They told him that they would only give us the $350 for his medicines if he could show a budget explaining "exactly where the money was going". I felt like saying to them 'I dunno, rent and food?"

DH gave them a generic budget and was told that they wanted to see a weekly Pathmark bill, etc. They also wanted to know if I was seeing more doctors and that was why we had high medical bills. DH and I felt that they were basically snarkily asking if I was pregnant. I wasn't, but we both felt that their response were extremely inappropriate.

So I got an extra job that paid the equivalent of $150 a month, and DH switched to a cheaper, generic medication and a different doctor. His old doctor had been the head of the department. His new doctor never answered his emergency pages.

I know because DH ended up in the hospital for a few days because the new medicines didn't agree wtih him.

My parents asked how on Earth this had happened because DH had been doing really well for years on his old regime. I confided in my mother that our health insurance had changed and that it was an extra $350 that we didn't have. She called my mother-in-law, found out that they had stopped supporting us. She then gave us $800 a month until DH and I graduated from school at the end of shana rishona.

So while I appreciate people saying that you need to know "what they are spending it on", sometimes things come up and the in-laws don't need to know.

amother

Sun, Feb 09 2014, 11:39 pm

amother wrote:

we would help out
the issue we have is that he does nothing to look for any job. right away he expects to get fully supported. hw about he look for any job, show that you are responsible.
once that is in place, everything else will follow

Are you certain he does nothing to find a job, or is this an assumption?
I go married at 21 with a college degree when the market was flooded with experienced pple out of work in my field. I went on lots of interviews, and no job offers. I did not tell my in-laws about all those interviews. The rejections were horrible.

After 1 yr I finally found my first job. Nine months pregnant, I took that job, and since then I've b"H worked my way up in my field. A job is like a shidduch - it happens when it's bashert - with the proper hishtadlus. Looking for work can be very demoralizing. If your sil seems aloof, it may be his pride that he is trying to preserve.

mummiedearest

Mon, Feb 10 2014, 11:32 am

amother wrote:

amother, I would like to point out that in your circumstances, you were promised support and then denied it. op's son-in-law was told off the bat that after two years they'd be on their own. when a couple goes to their parents after the support window is closed and asks for money, the parents have a right to know exactly what the money is needed for, especially if the couple has a history of spending more than they make.