S/o emotional and physical abuse in schools

nursemomma

Thu, Aug 04 2016, 11:06 am

In general, the non-Jewish world has a harsher view of discipline. I once had a cultural awareness day in college- the class was divided into groups by ethnicity/culture, and we each presented different aspects, one of them being child rearing. Needless to say, I was beyond SHOCKED. The stories they told, of abuse, by teachers and parents, is horrifying! It is acceptable in many places to beat and punish children for the smalles misdemeanor. This did not occur decades ago, I am talking about 20-30 yr olds!!
In no way am I minimizing what happened/happens in chedarim, and abuse must be dealt with and stopped head on, but yes, I do feel that overall, we are lucky to have an established Jewish education system.

debsey

Thu, Aug 04 2016, 11:11 am

Chayalle wrote:

I agree, Debsey.

I think that today, if a young, inexperienced teacher would discipline in an excessive way, the kids would tell their mothers, and the teacher would be told to tone it down. If it continued, she would be fired. By the time the teacher would be considered an experienced teacher, hopefully her teaching method would include skills that help her discipline appropriately.

Years ago, this did not happen and you would hear about a teacher being considered experienced, and people assumed if she was being mean that it was fine, the teacher must know better. Like the teacher that taped my sister's mouth shut - she was considered one of the schools veteran mechanchos (though every single little girl hoped to be in the other class. Everyone I know who was in her first grade class has a miserable story she either experienced or witnessed).

There's more awareness. It's a good thing.

I also think mothers are more likely to get involved in a situation not directly dealing with their own child. Meaning, years ago, if a girl came home and told a story about a kid being humiliated or getting her mouth duct-taped, the mother would say something like "Were you behaving? Good! Shoin...." and go on with her life.

Nowadays, we're more aware of vicarious traumatization, and we're more likely to call the school even from just hearing about something. We're also more likely to get calls from each other. When my son was yelled at by a bus driver, who used foul language and threatened him, not only did I hear about it from my son, at least 3 other mothers of boys on the bus either came over and told me, or called me. And when I called the principal to find out the full story, he had already heard the story from about 5 people, both mothers and kids.

DrMom

Thu, Aug 04 2016, 11:35 am

nursemomma wrote:

I think if you are going to compare the Jewish vs non-Jewish world, you should use examples from the same country.

Is this what you were doing or are you comparing non-Jews in one country to Jewish schools in another?

mommy3b2c

Fri, Aug 05 2016, 10:56 am

heidi wrote:

OP, I don't know where you live. But any society that thinks this is culturally acceptable behavior in 2016 is most definitely third world.
And I couldn't disagree with you more.
My son's dati leumi teacher once pushed a kid. In 8th grade. That kid's father was there with the police within an hour.
And that my dear, is why it is exclusively a problem in xenophobic charedi society.

Exclusively?

I think not. Unfortunately, children are abused in schools in all society's. It's terrible.

amother

Brown

Fri, Aug 05 2016, 11:14 am

I have worked in a few public schools and while the norm is to yell /shout, nobody is allowed to push or touch kids....teachers are not even allowed to say things to embarrass kids....and if teachers do this, a case may be brought against them and they may lose job/license...
. however, like with every situation in life, there's favoritism (especially towards certain race) and some teachers get away with talking in a "verbally abusive" manner as well as pulling kids....BUT IT IS NOT THE NORM!!!
. however I do believe yelling is part of discipline and this is the norm in many public schools I worked in. Because the kids tend to behave better and therefore learn...unlike sweet calming talk for which the students dont listen --most principals in public schools yell too and the ones who don't are disrespected or have no real interaction with students !!
. I once heard a drum speech therapist in a public school saying a Para is so mean to the kids that its disgusting!!but she's not teacher and doesn't realize that "acting mean" made sure the kids in am the classroom have a safe environment and are learning!!she doesn't understand about discipline pertaining to an entire class!!
. discipline is a big issue in Jewish schools as well as bullying meaning many unsafe environments maybe if teachers and principals were stricter the bullies wouldn't be "thriving" while their victims suffer--even though torah teaches us to have respect/be mench ...doesn't mean the Jewish students will just respect a teacher who doesn't yell or act mean!!!
. the things my son told me his classmates did are as if they are non jews--im shocked Jewish kids behave like this!!some things are overlooked for money too!!

nursemomma

Fri, Aug 05 2016, 11:53 am

DrMom wrote:

There were actually people from many different states/cultures etc. The Jewish group was greatly varied as well as far as how they identified themselves (lubavitch, non-religious, chassidisch) and coming from different places. There was an overwhelming difference overall in how child rearing was approached.

polka dots

Fri, Aug 05 2016, 12:18 pm

amother wrote:

. however I do believe yelling is part of discipline and this is the norm in many public schools I worked in. Because the kids tend to behave better and therefore learn...unlike sweet calming talk for which the students dont listen most principals in public schools yell too and the ones who don't are disrespected or have no real interaction with students !!
. I once heard a drum speech therapist in a public school saying a Para is so mean to the kids that its disgusting!!but she's not teacher and doesn't realize that "acting mean" made sure the kids in am the classroom have a safe environment and are learning!!she doesn't understand about discipline pertaining to an entire class!!
. discipline is a big issue in Jewish schools as well as bullying meaning many unsafe environments maybe if teachers and principals were stricter the bullies wouldn't be "thriving" while their victims suffer--even though torah teaches us to have respect/be mench ...doesn't mean the Jewish students will just respect a teacher who doesn't yell or act mean!!!
. the things my son told me his classmates did are as if they are non jews--im shocked Jewish kids behave like this!!some things are overlooked for money too!!

Find this quite disturbing. Yelling in a classroom is NOT part of discipline. Of course teachers need to set boundaries and discipline but yelling is not the way to make that happen. It might sometimes be effective but that's just because thet are intimidated. you can set up natural consequences and reward systems that are effective and kids learn how to be better people as opposed to being terrorized into behaving.

amother

Brown

Fri, Aug 05 2016, 1:42 pm

Yes kids are intimidated but wen they realize they actually have safe environment and are learning, many students like the teacher because the caring side can come out too!!
. and be real, administrators always use the phrase "set up a natural consequences and reward system" but this is so general because what consequences will intimidate students that will actually be allowed and rewards have to good enough to spend lot of pocket money---very few schools are able to implement consequences and rewards that are really motivating --
Be specific here about wat will really work !!l.

amother

Emerald

Fri, Aug 05 2016, 2:38 pm

amother wrote:

Intimidation and scare tactics are a lazy man's way out.

The goal is not that students should be intimidated. The goal is that students should learn, and become better human beings.

Not to intimidate and force people into doing things.

Yes, it is harder to set up a natural consequences and reward system instead of yelling, demeaning and hitting kids into artificial submission. That's because it's the smart way, not the lazy way.

amother

Lemon

Fri, Aug 05 2016, 2:41 pm

Mamabear I've seen pickup and drop off at the school you've mentioned it's so terribly sad!

And what about the ps on marcy/rutledge/heyward? And the one on throop. Omg.
But I do think city ps are worse than most. That includes the families the children come from and the teachers/administration. There are some pretty decent ps in other places.
Where I live now, there is a fairly decent ps. (From what it looks like from the few times I passed at pickup time)

A close relative teaches in a 1st world country (not us or isreal). Legally the teachers for chol have to be certified and are ps teachers and principals. The abuse they heap on the kids is terrible. As much as the administration complains to the city who provides the teachers there is nothing they do. If the teachers are fired the school can close it's doors.

So they encourage their students to discuss in the afternoon (kodesh) what happened in the morning (chol) and they give them tools on how to stay out of trouble and handle the morning teachers abuse. Its just so sad.

And to think this is what the ps kids grow up with..... and think its normal....

That said, there was lots of emotional abuse going on when I grew up. I was the happy-go-lucky kid with older uninvolved parents. I always smiled and laughed and kept everthing inside. So if the class misbehaved I was punished. The teachers didn't have patience to deal with crying so I was the perfect scapegoat. I blocked out most of my school years.
My last year of school, we had an optional after hours course all girls could take. it was a class room management and discipline course and how to spot a troubled child. You had to pass that class in order to get a teaching job. Part of it was doing substitute teaching while being observed a couple of times. My nieces go to that school and are thriving there.

I swiched to that school in highschool. They were my best school years. I would go back now for a few more years of that.

amother

Brown

Fri, Aug 05 2016, 2:56 pm

emerald and polka dots, you still did not give specifics !! anyway, just to clarify I dont mean that teachers yell out of anger but to yell to "put on a mean act" so as to have children know the teacher is strict and wont accept nonsense --obviously we disagree here about this and that is okay but it is the norm in public school in new york because you state your way is the "smart way" yet you did not give details of what this entails because you dont have details!! it is easy to say "do it another way" but first tell everyone details of "this smarter way".

anyway, back to OP's topic, I have a big issue with how teachers do not let kids go to the bathroom enough!! this is abuse as I do understand, that many students take advantage and ask to go to the bathroom only because they want to roam hall or take a break!! but I specifically wrote that my children had to go often and my children had many accidents because the teachers would not let them go saying "NOBODY MAY LEAVE THE ROOM!" I know my child told me she was told she cant go even though she asked or told to wait!.....especially in the hotter months when they go outside in the heat for recess, my children will drink more so as to be hydrated but this means they will have to go bathroom more!!

polka dots

Fri, Aug 05 2016, 4:18 pm

Totally getting off topic from op here but some examples on the top of my head to avoid yelling:
*being proactive (example: planning the day right) to avoid certain misbehaviors and having consistent rewarding system on place.
* giving Posotive feedback to children who are following rules and ignoring negative behaviors so not to give kids negative attention
*natural consequences are not like "you broke all the crayons so no snack for you!" It has a relationship "if you can't color nicely with the crayons than you can't have the crayons today..."

amother

Brown

Fri, Aug 05 2016, 5:07 pm

Seriously ?? I'm talking about kids who hit other kids ....still don't see detailed outline of reward /consequences that a teacher can use.....but I wont be replying anymore bec its off topic and obviously u didn't provide a system of consequences and rewards (of course a teacher must praise good kids...ignore bad kids if possible but that's different from system of rewards n consequences!!) and older kids aren't using crayons necessarily....and wat about kids who throw crayons at others?I would want a severe consequence if my child had crayons thrown at him??