Enough kids for you!

amother

Orchid

Fri, May 24 2019, 6:25 pm

amother [ White ] wrote:

If a family with 16 children is managing financially , paying tuition, none of the kids have emotional/behavioral issues, and they have a mansion so the kids have personal space than great for them.

In my experience most people with huge families have dysfunctional homes , struggle financially, use the older kids as babysitters/assistant mothers to raise the younger ones , and cram their kids into really tight quarters.

I grew up in a family of 12 and almost all of my siblings and I all have a strong pro b.c. view and believe my parents were wrong not to use it. It's very rare someone who has the physical, emotional, and financial means to get pregnant every year to 18 months and still care for their existing kids. My childhood memories including crying in my bed when hearing my mom throw up and my sister consoling me that maybe she was just sick and not pregnant. It's very traumatic for kids for their mother to always be focusing on herself or a new baby.

Hugs to you. That sounds really tough.

This was exactly my point: even if the mother herself can handle having kids close together, part of the cheshbon is how the pregnancy and new baby will affect other members of the family. I think that this gets lost, since all the discussion is about whether the woman can handle it.

Last edited by amother on Mon, Jul 08 2019, 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Salmon

Sat, May 25 2019, 5:05 pm

livinginflatbus wrote:

I’m going to say this under my screen name . Quite frankly , this thread is making women with fewer kids feel inferior . If your so blessed to have a large family and can handle it , kol hakovod to you . But this anti bc stance here is just wrong. Since when is it a race to have the most kids? There are so many factors why people have small families and it doesn’t invalidate them in the eyes of Hashem .

In some communities it looks like a competition to birth the most within the shortest time frame. Secondly, it is a status thing (or call it a shtus thing). When women gather, the conversation is usually: What your name is, where you live and how many kids you have.
From someone who is anti-competition and has zero kids and thinks every couple should do what is good for them.

Mommyg8

Sat, May 25 2019, 11:48 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

Respectfully, there certainly are poskim who hold this way. There also are others who don't. I don't believe it's fair to call it a lie when R' Moshe Feinstein and others absolutely paskened in this manner.

The real question among poskim in the RW world is how to define "absolutely neccessary." Many poskim today agree that 6m to 2 years IS absolutely necessary for most families in today's generation where women don't neccessarily nurse clean or nurse at all or get pregnant anyhow.

Others feel that "absolutely necessary" truly means cases of possible health issues or dysfuction.

And there's a range in between as well.

Anyone in the Chassidish or RW Litvish world who choose to take halacha seriously fall somewhere in this range.

We women do understandably get very emotional about this topic. But to say BC is totally muttar in all circumstances is most certainly not the emes for this particular community.

I'm saying this as a woman who spaces her kids because I cannot handle one every year! According to my Rav, that makes BC absolutely neccessary and a total lechatchila FOR ME.

This is a beautiful post, and 100% the truth. There are many Rabbanim who hold that "necessary" refers to health issues or real dysfunction. AFAIK, all Rabbanim allow six months to a year if asked, and some Rabbanim allow two years, for any or no reason. This is not universal however.

I want to point out that I do know some families with 12 to 16 children, and they are beautiful functional families where every child feels loved and wanted. There was an older thread right here on imamother about a Satmar lady who went through the war and subsequently had a very large family (18 children, maybe?) And she was a wonderful mother and grandmother and great grandmother who treated each of her children as a one and only. She said- is it his fault that he's not an only child? I know a few very large families that are really wonderful without a hint of dysfunction whatsoever. I have no problem sharing real names if asked.

But most people nowadays don't have that many children. Not everyone gets pregnant every year naturally. Most women I know develop health issues at some point that precludes having a large family. And of course, if you space your children two to three years apart (as almost everyone I know does nowadays) you will have a large family but not 16.

I agree with superwify in the sense that at the end of the day, it IS the woman's body. While I know it feels like a game of semantics to say that HE needs a heter and she doesn't, really it's not. Because the onus should be on the husband. If he wants more children, if he feels it's his mitzvah, then try to convince your wife, but don't take it for granted that your wife will just become pregnant at your whim. She's not a slave and you don't own her body. I think I understand where superwify is coming from because I know women who had more children than they wished for which created a situation that nobody benefited from. Resentful wives, unhappy mothers, and unwanted children is not a great recipe for Sholom bayis.

amother

Taupe

Sun, May 26 2019, 2:21 am

amother [ Ivory ] wrote:

Mommy8, call me cynical, but I believe in no way is it possible for a child with 17 siblings to be made to feel like an only child.

It is just physically, emotionally and financially impossible.

Maybe they each felt their mother loved them like an only. But they definitely weren't getting the attention of an only.

How much love does a kid need? I don't want to generalize, but often the love that comes with being an only comes with a steep price that those 'onlys' don't want.
I come from a double digit family. I'm probably going to end up on the lower-mid end of single digit.
Believe me, I feel more loved than my kids will. I'm a good mother, but not out of the world great. My mother was. I never for one second doubted that she puts me before everything. She has and continues to do everything she possibly can for us. She stretches herself in numerous ways. She spent more time with us than I spend with my kids. she read moer to us. She played more games with us. I could go on and on. My kids aren't neglected, at all, chas vshalom. I play with them. occassionally I read to them. I schmooze with them. But their time with me is 'in competition' with my career; with other intersts; with 'imamother Crying

etc. etc.
My mother isn't perfect, and I do give my kids some things which she couldn't/doesn't, both bec. of my finanical situation and bec. of my personality, but both of these have nothign to do with amount of kids. Of course specific circumstances make things more black and white, but in the many families I know who have double digit, they are doing beautifully. I believe its all in the attitude. And yes, I admit that I'm very influenced by secular culture. Unfortunately, the merit of raising generations of children to serve Hashem is not strong enough in my mind to offset the secular culture, but I know it is wrong. I don't attempt to whitewash myself.

Mommyg8

Sun, May 26 2019, 10:50 am

amother [ Ivory ] wrote:

I don't know this lady, I'm just repeating what I read here on imamother.

But I do know some very large families- not 16 but close - which are really amazing families and the children are definitely getting as much, if not more, than children of smaller families. They most certainly do exist.

I don't know if it's so great to be an only child anyway. I know one family that only had one child and I can't even repeat the dysfunctional way this child was treated by her parents.

amother

Ivory

Sun, May 26 2019, 10:59 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Raising an only child has its own challenges.
But raising 16 children, it is impossible to give them the attention you give 3 children.

Maybe the children from these 'amazing families ' were exceptionally easy children and didnt need attention.

But a 12 year old in such a family, who needs her mother, is going to have to vie with a nursing baby, a toddler being toilet trained, her mother's morning sickness, her older sister's upcomimg marriage, and 11 other kids' daily issues - how much attention will she get?

That's assuming the mother has someone doing laundry and cooking, which already is a f/t job for 16 kids.

Bottom line, some families have mazal and turn out amazing despite the odds, not because of them.

amother

Babypink

Sun, May 26 2019, 11:02 am

It’s refreshing to hear positive feedback from those who come from well functional larger families. I have seen in my own family dysfunctional or poorly managed home before the kids were born. It isn’t because of the home the now Mother came from. There are all kinds of ways people manage or not. Knowing oneself and being realistic is important.
A lady told me how her Dr told her off when she came in with her third pregnancy and how she cried all the way home. This was in Europe over 60 years ago. She BH had many more.
It is a matter of being true, realistic and having a good prospective.

Mommyg8

Sun, May 26 2019, 11:05 am

amother [ Ivory ] wrote:

How much attention does a child need? My 12 year old really doesn't need me much.

One of these women now has almost all her children married. I think each one of her daughters calls her every day - because she wants to, not because she has to - and probably more often if they need advice. I have spoken to her DIL and she talks about her MIL like she is right up there next to G-d. This is an exceptional and unusual woman and I don't think everyone can do it, I'm just pointing out that it can be done and has been done. And I by no means know everyone in the frum world.

amother

Ivory

Sun, May 26 2019, 11:48 am

ectomorph wrote:

Take 8 families with 2 kids each. I guarantee they didn't all turn out ok.

And think how an experienced mom knows how to deal with things better than a first time mom.

I agree that 8 families with 2 kids each will still have some problems.
I still dont think raising 16 kids is humanely possible in this day and age, no matter how experienced the mom.

Today kids need major emotional support. It's not like in the olden days, when just keeping them alive and minimally functioning members of society was enough.

We will need to agree to disagree.

A mother of 16 will be spending ALL her parenting years pregnant, recovering from birth, or nursing. She will miss many family moments just due to that.

How is it even possible, unless she is very wealthy? She cant work with 16 kids. If she doesnt work, and she isnt sitting on a huge inheritance or her dh is not earning millions, then they will live in poverty. Already at risk of dysfunction.

If they arent wealthy, then she will be cooking and cleaning for 16. Does that really leave time for a tete-a-tete with the kids?

Just dont see this as viable, unless they are wealthy, the kids are super easy, and she sends them all away to be raised by some yeshiva at 13. Even then, she wont be fully present.

Mommyg8

Sun, May 26 2019, 11:53 am

amother [ Ivory ] wrote:

I am telling you truly that families such as this exist. Not 16, but 11, 12, 13, 14... large families.

You say it's not possible.

I can give you names.

Kollel people, so no, not hugely wealthy.

amother

Taupe

Sun, May 26 2019, 1:30 pm

amother [ Sienna ] wrote:

My friend has 10 kids kh and is not nearly done
She manages beautifully. This is how she was raised, and this is her dream. None of her kids are neglected in any way. I have waaaaaay less, and let's not discuss my managing skills. I'm happy for my kids that I'm working on it, and not piling more babies into the mix before our family can handle it.
Not every small family is perfectly functional and not every large family is falling apart. Every family has to know their limits and do what is beneficial for them.

Wonder if we have the same friend. I could've said the exact same.
For those worried about mothers managing large families: Its very good for kids to help: WE're not talking slave labor here. Kids like being involved; they like feeling like they are contributing. NOt talking about taking over the household, of course, but there's a way to be very involved and feel good about it. SOme kids love cooking and baking and see it as an art. Others don't mind laundry or cleaning (me). etc. etc. Its fun to be part of a team. My fondest memories are of scrubbing the house for Pesach with my sibs and Thursday night baking and cleaning sprees. 'Twas really fun and my kids aint getting much of that bec. no way they are baking up a storm for 4 kids and 2 adults when we can only eat so much.
Functional/dysfunctional doesn't depend on amount of kids; it depends on parent's health-mental, emotional and physical. The rest falls into place.

amother

Tangerine

Sun, May 26 2019, 2:09 pm

I grew up in a 12+ family and so did DH. I would be very happy to raise the same if Hashem blesses me to do so!

I do have a child away in a boarding high school (the local ones are not appropriate for our family), but I speak to that child every day, often for a half hour to an hour. Although I may not be doing their laundry during the week, I haven't "handed them off" to someone else to raise.

Newborns are generally physical rather than mental work, and older kids' emotional support requires mental and not physical work. I have had great discussions while nursing.

I can't say I am a perfect mom, I am certainly worse than my own mother, but all of my kids are excited when we have another baby and fight over holding them. They asked me to have twins or triplets next time so they don't have to share as much!

If I was a more organized type, certain things would run smoother, but this is the deck Hashem dealt me, and my kids don't seem much the worse for wear.

No, not everyone can handle a larger family without it taking a toll on themselves or others, but why insinuate that those who can handle it are doing a disservice to their families? Bringing down more Yiddishe neshamos and raising them in a happy Torah home is a mitzvah, and nobody should feel guilty to seek out the support to make it work.

amother

Tangerine

Mon, May 27 2019, 3:16 pm

amother [ Ivory ] wrote:

I think that you are estimating that if it takes 1 hour for 4 kids, it will double for 8 and triple for 12. It doesn't work that way. Economy of scale works wonders.

Cooking for 6: Cook 1 box of pasta, cut up 1 cucumber & 2 tomatoes, brown 1 lb ground beef, add sauce and spices, heat up 1 lb mixed vegetables. Total time: 30 minutes

Cooking for 16: Cook 3 boxes of pasta, cut up 3 cucumbers and 6 tomatoes, brown 2.5 lb ground beef, add sauce and spices, heat up 3 lb mixed vegetables. Total time: 35 minutes

Cleaning for 6: Announce: "Let's all clear the table! Please take off the number of objects corresponding to your age. If you're 6, take off 6 things." Load dishwasher. Sweep floor. Put in load of laundry. Total time: 40 minutes

Cleaning for 16: Announce: "Let's all clear the table! Please take off the number of objects corresponding to your age. If you're 6, take off 6 things." Load dishwasher. Sweep floor. Put in 2 loads of laundry. Reload dishwasher. Total time: 1 hour

Not all emotional support has to come only from parents. I got plenty of emotional support from my siblings, friends, and teachers.

The bigger your family, the more shortcuts and tricks you learn for cooking, laundry, and even childcare. (Did you know that 2 kids playing together with pots on the floor enables you to get dinner in the oven faster than 1 in a highchair? Did you know that you can bathe 3 kids in the same tub, in only slightly more time than it would take to bathe 1? Did you know that a "race" can get many recalcitrant kids to put on their pajamas in less time than it would take to convince 1?)

You can read to 4 children as well as to 2, you can have group discussions and not only 1-on-1. You can take one kid at a time with you on errands to have private parent time, and many family museum memberships include all of you for one price.

Yes, the chaos is greater, sometimes needs conflict, and there are fewer breaks for mom. But at the end of the day, bringing these neshamos into the world and raising them as Yidden is priceless.